The Oldsmobile Connection

[c_creations]

Im tuning my 68/9 olds 350 and I hooked up a vacuum tester to the intake manifold to do so, and sure enough just as i thought it was tuned really bad. I was sure it was tuned bad because it would stall on me when i stopped suddenly ect. I got it tuned back up but i had to advance it alot by turning the dist. and now it idles at around 1800 rpms. Im thinking that maybe the timing is off when the dist was put in, or maybe the vacuum advance is broke? What could be this problem.

[88 Coupe]

Hi c_creations, hello everyone,

First we need to know what you mean by "tuning".

Quote: ........ hooked up a vacuum tester to the intake manifold to do so, and sure enough just as i thought it was tuned really bad .........
When used properly, a vacuum gauge is a valuable tool.

Please explain what you found, and how and why you thought it was "tuned bad".

Quote: ........ it would stall on me when i stopped suddenly ect ........
That's what you should have posted here before you started dinking with it.

Quote: ........ I got it tuned back up but i had to advance it alot by turning the dist. and now it idles at around 1800 rpms ........
It idles at 1800 RPM because you turned the distributor. Turn it back to where it was.

Quote: ........ Im thinking that maybe the timing is off when the dist was put in ........
Timing was off when you put it in, and was on after the shop set it for you. It's off now because you turned the distributor. That light I told you to buy would have come in handy about now.

Quote: ........ or maybe the vacuum advance is broke? ........
Can't cause any problems. It's for fuel economy and can be used to "fine tune" throttle response.

Pull the dist cap off, then the other end of the hose off the carb and suck on it. If the breaker plate moves with the vacuum and stays without adding more, its good.

Quote: ........ What could be this problem.
We can go there after you get the timing and anything else you changed back where it was.

In the future, always mark its position before you adjust anything. Most of the time you'll need to put it back where it was, and it makes it a lot easier.

Regards, Norm

[c_creations]

Ok, so i realize that im actually really dumb, cause i did some reading on it and it sais pretty much that if you tune it by advanceing it your a gaytard. So the Hg reading will be way lower if you have a hotter cam, but, about how much lower, and also by where it was reading it could be like an incorrct valve timing. What can i do to figure this out. Maybe my carb is so rich it has to idle that fast to keep up w/ it, or maybe that my idle screw on my carb is to high. HELP. it would be so much easier to have someone just show me, but, this is all i have so. bare with me.



Or maybe: I need to time the dist back to where it should be, then lean the carb?

[andrewk]

c_creations wrote: Ok, so i realize that im actually really dumb, cause i did some reading on it and it sais pretty much that if you tune it by advanceing it your a gaytard. So the Hg reading will be way lower if you have a hotter cam, but, about how much lower, and also by where it was reading it could be like an incorrct valve timing. What can i do to figure this out. Maybe my carb is so rich it has to idle that fast to keep up w/ it, or maybe that my idle screw on my carb is to high. HELP. it would be so much easier to have someone just show me, but, this is all i have so. bare with me.



Or maybe: I need to time the dist back to where it should be, then lean the carb?

whuts a gaytard? I would say you would want to reduce the gaytards by one to find proper tune... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[c_creations]

The dist is back where it needs to be, and it just stalls. Just like before when it was there. and Vacuume gauge reads at about 10Hg

[88 Coupe]

Hi All,

I don't believe anyone would send their Doctor an email saying "I'm feeling bad" and expect him to reply with a correct diagnosis. He wouldn't know whether to give you an asprin or take out your appendix. In person, he'd take a minute or two to do some basic checks, ask some questions, and give you a name, and a cure, for your ailment.

No different than troubleshooting a problem with an Olds.

Problem with internet diagnosis is communication. Did it stall or did it die? There is a big difference. Right now, it doesn't matter what we call it, but it is important that we all see the same picture.

To illustrate: Seeing, hearing, and feeling, exactly what was happening, I'm confident I would have correctly diagnosed this one quicker than the above MD. Since we have to substitute c_creations words for my senses, it won't be nearly that simple.

Quote: ........ The dist is back where it needs to be ........
If you didn't set it with a timing light, you don't know that. If it's close we can work with it. If it's not, it will be that much harder.

Did you undo everything else you did? Much easier if we start over, at the beginning.

Quote: ........ stalls. Just like before when it was there ........
Not much to go on. There are many reasons why it might stall. Tell us, as best you can, everything I would see and hear from the time you start it until after it quits. Then be prepared for the questions that will be needed for clarification. The more complete your description, the more accurate the diagnosis will be.

Did, anything change before the "stalling" began? Did it start all of a sudden, or was it gradual? Does it act the same whether it's cold or at normal operating temp?

Quote: ........ and vacuum gauge reads at about 10Hg
The reading is meaningless. How to use your vacuum gauge can be covered when you actually need to use it. What you need now, is a timing light. Sears.com/advance timing light. Make sure it has the dial on the back.

I think I found a new sig.

Regards, Norm

[Brando]

Very nice analogy there.

TOC Admin
Brando

[c_creations]

Ok, The only difference when its cold/hot is its idle. having it warm up it idles at about 1000. which is just fine. I put it in gear and it drops to about 900rpms. I let off the break and it starts to roll give it a little gas and it dogs just a bit wanting to stall(stall/chokeout till its dead). drive around come up to a stopsign/light slow down stop, (stall till dead). Thats what happens. Nothing has been changed. My guess is the carb, but, from past experiences, what do i know.

[88 Coupe]

Hi All,

Brando wrote: Very nice analogy there.
Thanks. I was thinking it could go in a "Read this before you post here" type sticky.

Everyone: c_creations said, he thinks, the carb is the problem. This is like telling someone not to think about the Elephant. Everyone will be thinking about the Elephant (carb) and nothing else. Something to keep in mind when troubleshooting someone else's problem.

c_creations: My comments are not to put you down in any way. They are intended to help you understand how your car works and how to troubleshoot and then repair it yourself. We might even find you a few more HP while we are here. Hopefully everyone else will learn a little also.

Quote: ........ having it warm up it idles at about 1000 ........
Warm idle should be about 800 RPM, but it won't hurt anything, so, leave it there for now.

Quote: ........ put it in gear and it drops to about 900rpms ........
Shows the initial timing is close enough to work with. When you get a chance, pull the dist cap, twist the rotor cap clockwise and let it spring back, post back and tell me how it felt. I'll explain then.

Quote: ........ it starts to roll give it a little gas and it dogs ........
What do you do at that instant?

Quote: ........ (stall/chokeout till its dead) ........
Stall could be for any number of reasons. Choking (flooding) would be only one, and you don't know if that's the case. Part of working with me, is to give me facts only, that is, don't say the carb is the problem unless you are prepared to tell me why.

Right now most of those reading this are thinking carb. Do you think you've helped your situation by sending everyone to the wrong place?

Quote: ........ drive around come up to a stopsign/light slow down stop, (stall till dead) ........
Describe what happens when it "stalls till dead". How it acts when it dies, together with the other information I would have seen and heard if I was there, will tell us where to look.

So you are saying, it starts like it should and you let it run at idle until it warms up to normal operating temp, then drive it and when you stop, it just dies? Is it hard to restart? Does it start again with no trouble? What happens when you accelerate hard? How does it run on the highway?

Quote: ........ Nothing has been changed ........
There is a difference between "has changed" and "has been changed".
"Has changed" might be as simple as the fuel tank was filled or the outside temp is 30° F cooler than when it last ran right, where, "has been changed" might mean a new water pump was installed.

Quote: ........ My guess is the carb ........
My first two guesses are not the carb.

Due to a lack of understanding of how it works, many malfunctions are mistakenly blamed on the carburetor.

The fact is: the carb is one of the most efficient and trouble free parts on the car.

The art of troubleshooting is mostly a simple process of elimination. So far, we can eliminate an over rich condition since you haven't mentioned black smoke from the exhaust.

Regards, Norm

[c_creations]

OK:...


Yes that was a lovly analogy and it helped me figure out where your comming from.

Heres whats going down:

Im aware that the idle should be around 800, but. it will barly even stay alive at that low of an rpm. Ill check the spring on the rotor tomorrow hopefully and get back to you on that, Im guessing its vital information.

When it dogs and starts to die, I let off the gas hopeing that it wont die. Its not like im giving it that much gas to start with, just a normal amount to accelerate to the next stop sign a block away in a town of 1200 people where the blocks are ruffly 300ft long, so its not like im drivin a mile till i stop next. if you see what im saying of how little of gas is even being given to it before this happens.

And im sorry if ive mislead you by saying I think its the carb. by saying I think is showing how ignorant im am. hopeing you'll see that im a dumbass and correct me.

when it stalls/dies it sounds like the engine just cant keep up w/ itself and just boggs down and dies. It, when given gas, loses rpms, and if it catches, If it will gain rpms, but only if the dist is set to idle at about 1000-1200, preferably higher the easyer/less it does it.

Nothing has been changed/ nothing has changed. it does it same, hot/cold, windy/calm, dry/wet, {even tho it hasnt seen rain in forever}. No new parts, except a new fuel pump which is factory reproduction hmm? Could this be the problem, which i doubt it is. It was installed cause the old one had a dried up diaphram and was leaking like a banshee.

Tell me your first two guesses.
I think its the carb because ive driven alot of small engine things like dirtbikes, atvs and stuff. and well when they are cold and you romp on the gas they die. Pretty much the same death as my cutlass is facing right now. Except this wont go away. even when running at a healthy temp. There is no over excessive black smoke comming out, but. I have noticed when its idling in one spot i can see wetness behind the pipes. Might this add to some of the problem or is it just condensation coming out?


IM going to get a timeing light with a dial back on it.
Soon,

I hope this helps you see more of the problem.

Thanks for putting up w/ me

[88 Coupe]

Hi c_creations, All,

First, never apologize for not knowing what you haven't learned yet.

Forgot to ask. Did it start all of a sudden or come on gradually?

88 Coupe wrote: So you are saying, it starts like it should and you let it run at idle until it warms up to normal operating temp, then drive it and when you stop, it just dies?
Is it hard to restart?
Does it start again with no trouble?
What happens when you accelerate hard?
How does it run on the highway?
You should be able to floor the gas once, let off it, turn the key to start, and it should sit and idle smoothly. Is this what happens?

If not, tell me what happens, from when you first get in the car, to the time you drive away from the house. Walk me through it, and don't leave anything out. Remember, you are my eyes and ears and I need to see, hear, and feel, everything you do.

c_creations wrote: ........ I’m guessing its vital information ........
It will come in very handy. Maybe now, definitely later.

Quote: ........ I let off the gas hoping that it wont die. Its not like im giving it that much gas to start with ........
Do you need to give it gas, just to keep it running?

Quote: ........ when it stalls/dies it sounds like the engine just cant keep up w/ itself and just bogs down and dies. It, when given gas, loses RPM, and if it catches, it will gain RPM, but only if the dist is set to idle at about 1000-1200, preferably higher the easier/less it does it ........
I think we can work with this.

Quote: ........ Tell me your first two guesses ........
That would be the same as telling you not to think about the Elephant.

Quote: ........ I think it’s the carb because I’ve driven a lot of small engine things like dirt bikes, ATVs and stuff. and well when they are cold and you romp on the gas they die. Pretty much the same death as my cutlass is facing right now ........
This is a big help because I've experienced it. It looks like we're dealing with a lean mixture. If we're lucky, your answers to the above should confirm it and tell us where to look.

Quote: ........ or is it just condensation coming out? ........
If it's only when the engine is cold, yes.

Regards, Norm

[c_creations]

This all started to happen last year. A seat in the secondarys on the carb was worn and was leaking gas constantly in the carb, so I had a guy replace it. His specialty is holly and he said that was all and it should work fine, thats about when it started and is why i thought it was running rich because of that extra gas leaking in the motor.

Its not hard to restart after i shut it down, when i start it up it runs the same. Down the high way is fine. anything over about 1800rpms is fine.

When it starts to die i let off the gas. I have to let off to keep it running it seems.

I checked the dist, and this is what happened: This motor turns counter clockwise BTW if that helps, The rotor wouldnt turn clockwise, but it would turn counterclockwise, it was moderatly tough to turn it, and it sprung back to its origional spot when i let go. There wasnt any snap to it, it just moved back.

I hope this is what your looking for to help diagnose the problem.

[88 Coupe]

Hi c_creations, All,

Quote: A seat in the secondaries in the carb was worn and was leaking gas constantly in the carb, so I had a guy replace it. His specialty is holly and he said that was all and it should work fine, thats about when it started and is why i thought it was running rich because of that extra gas leaking in the motor ........
This should have been in your first post. It's also what I was looking for when I asked if anything had changed.

Much like in a toilet, when the float gets to the proper level, the valve (needle and seat) closes and maintains the proper fluid level. If it doesn't seal, you'll have an overflowing carb and raw fuel dripping into the combustion chamber. It's not running rich, because he replaced the leaking valve. It's running lean, and since it started when he did the job, they might be directly related. Why didn't you take it back to him?

What else can you tell us about the circumstances surrounding that incident?
Are you certain it was the secondary, not the primary side?
Was it happening when the mechanic set your ignition timing?

Now that everyone is thinking about the carb, let's consider it a red herring.

Most common cause of a lean mixture that goes away as RPM is increased, is a vacuum leak. Either mechanic could have left a port unplugged. If so it was, likely, on the carb.

Visually check all the hoses and ports for leaks. If no luck start the engine and check all possible sources. I've always sprayed the suspect areas with aerosol carb cleaner. I've heard an unlit propane torch works also, but have never tried it. Either way, when you find it, the engine will speed up.

Quote: ........ I checked the dist ........ There wasn't any snap to it, it just moved back ........
My definition of the word "snap" is open to question at this point, but it appears to be working correctly. It's your mechanical (centrifugal) advance. If it didn't return solidly to its home position it could have been part of your problem. It could also have been the reason for a of lack power, but we'll return to that subject later.

My first two guesses were related to a lean condition and have been eliminated as causes.

First would have been the gas cap. Clogged vent can cause it to lean out after it has run for a few minutes. Unususal, but it has happened.

Second would have been a clogged fuel filter. When fuel demand gets higher than it can supply, it will act like the ignition was turned off.

Regards, Norm

[andrewk]

It needs another "gaytard" :lol: :lol: [/smartassedhumor]

I agree with Norm 110%. I would look at all your vaccum lines and plugs to see if there is a leak anywhere. A good trick for this is to get yourself a can of carb cleaner, and run the engine, and spray around the vac. ports. When the engine revs up, you have found your leak. I hope that is a clear explanation... Anyway, idk if that would work in your case since it wont run below 1800 rpm... something to try though. Hope this helps Josh...

Andrew

[c_creations]

Ill tune it down and check everything this saturday, I bought some carb cleaner. What if its not a leak? if i dont find anything, Should I rich the carb up, or talk to you guys first? Just let me know, and ill do whatever i have to.