The Oldsmobile Connection

[GraveReaper0]

Hello all. As you all know, I like the 455 big block, so much, that I'm gonna put one in this coming up spring.

Now I don't want just any ol 455, I want one with some balls. Been talking to my friends step dad, and here's what I've got so far. My budget for the engine alone is $5,000.

First off, I need to find a good block that can take hi performance. He told me that I need to find one that has a thicker webbing in the cylinders, and that the numbers will tell you how thick they are. Anyone know what those numbers are??
Once I find one it'll get boiled to find any cracks and then ballanced.
Now I need to start getting my parts list together.
First, a heavy duty crank, something that will take it punishment, looking for suggestions.
A set of aluminum heads would be nice, but not sure if they make em for this block.
A nice set of roller rockers, need some names so I know where to start looking.
Also I believe I can fit a turbo charger underneath the hood, can I? He said to get a paxton or a banks blower.
And switching from carb to fuel injection. Where can I get that?
Then he was talking about studing the motor, caz the bolts on big blocks give away after a while. Can anyone explain this to me in detail?
Some weisco pistons, first time I'm hearing that name, gonna have to look it up.

So does any of this make sence so far? My goal is to get a complete parts list before spring so I can buy the parts over the winter. So if you can add on to the parts list, that would be great.

[andrewk]

Are you looking for something streetable, or are you going for a specific ET? Ass dyno figures are no good, a ball park estimate would let us know what exactly to reccomend. But nevertheless, here goes.


GraveReaper0 wrote:
First off, I need to find a good block that can take hi performance. He told me that I need to find one that has a thicker webbing in the cylinders, and that the numbers will tell you how thick they are. Anyone know what those numbers are??

Most of the "F number" theory is just that. There was no production run of specifically thicker blocks that I know of. Then again, I wasnt alive then, so I could be wrong.

Quote: Once I find one it'll get boiled to find any cracks and then ballanced.

Good call. Add a sonic check to that list. That will let you know how much "meat" you are dealing with. By balanced, you mean the rotating assembly, and not the block, right? Balancing may be some of the best money you spend on the build, espically if you are using aftermarket parts.

Quote:
First, a heavy duty crank, something that will take it punishment, looking for suggestions.

This is where a HP figure is good. There is no need to go to a molex or billet crank when a good ol cast iron one will suffice. Steel cranks are good, but you will spend the better portion of your budget any crank other than a cast one.

Quote: A set of aluminum heads would be nice, but not sure if they make em for this block.

Edelbrock, Bulldog, Rocket Racing, just to name a few. The edelbrocks are a decent head out of the box, but can take some work if you are looking at an extensive build.

Quote: A nice set of roller rockers, need some names so I know where to start looking.

Harland Sharp.

Quote: Also I believe I can fit a turbo charger underneath the hood, can I? He said to get a paxton or a banks blower.

And he must know little about the strength of the BBO. If you are going that route, go with a small block.

Quote: And switching from carb to fuel injection. Where can I get that?

Megasquirt is a name I have heard, but dont know anything about.

Quote: Then he was talking about studing the motor, caz the bolts on big blocks give away after a while. Can anyone explain this to me in detail?

Simply put, over rev the BBO too much, and watch it grenade.


Quote: Some weisco pistons, first time I'm hearing that name, gonna have to look it up.

So does any of this make sence so far? My goal is to get a complete parts list before spring so I can buy the parts over the winter. So if you can add on to the parts list, that would be great.

I would talk to some reputable Olds engine builders regarding your build. It doesnt sound like your friends step dad has much experience, or better put, successful experience with oldsmobile engines.

[88 Coupe]

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ I don't want just any ol 455, I want one with some balls. ........
How many balls?

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Been talking to my friends step dad ........
Is he an engine builder? Rebuilder? Mechanic? Hobbyist? Or does he read car magazines?

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ My budget for the engine alone is $5,000 ........
OK. Using performance quality parts, that's about enough for a simple street/strip rebuild, and a 6 pack.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ He told me that I need to find one that has a thicker webbing in the cylinders ........
Wouldn't that be the small block 455?

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ and that the numbers will tell you how thick they are. Anyone know what those numbers are? ........
My guess is, he's talking about the "F" numbers cast into the bellhousing area. Lots of rumors about what they mean but, as yet, no one has stepped up with any documentation.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ it'll get boiled to find any cracks and ........
By "boiled, do you mean "hot tanked"? If so, it's done to clean the parts.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ then balanced ........
That would be a given, in any quality rebuild.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Now I need to start getting my parts list together ........
What you need to do, now, is figure out what you want to achieve.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ First, a heavy duty crank, something that will take it punishment ........
Any iron 455 crank will work fine. To use anything else, will exceed your 5K budget.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ A set of aluminum heads would be nice, but not sure if they make em for this block ........
Right now, there are three different designs. Which one suits your needs, will depend what those needs are. Any one of the 3, will exceed your 5K budget.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ A nice set of roller rockers, need some names so I know where to start looking ........
That will depend on which heads you use.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ I believe I can fit a turbo charger underneath the hood, can I? ........
Yes.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ He said to get a paxton or a banks blower ........
Paxton sells, belt driven, centrifugal supercharger kits.

Banks, currently sells, exhaust driven, turbine supercharger kits, for diesels.

Installation has to be custom, as there are no "kits" made for Olds. Well over, if not double, your 5K budget.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ And switching from carb to fuel injection ........
There are no "kits" made for Olds, so it could be double your 5K budget.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Where can I get that? ........
Depends who you can find that might put a system together for you.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Then he was talking about studing the motor, caz the bolts on big blocks give away after a while. Can anyone explain this to me in detail? ........
Maybe, if you can explain, in detail, what "give away after awhile" means.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Some weisco pistons ........
OEM replacements. They are good at what they were designed to do.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ does any of this make sense so far? ........
Not much.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ My goal is to get a complete parts list before spring so I can buy the parts over the winter ........
Once the specs are done, your machinist can get everything you'll need, when you need it.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ if you can add on to the parts list ........
No way anyone can even start a list without knowing what you want to achieve.

I suggest you do a search for posts by c_creations, here, in the Performance forum, for some of the basic information you'll need, before you can begin to get started.

Norm

[88 Coupe]

andrewk wrote: ........ Add a sonic check to that list ........
Not necessary unless he's going past .06". I haven't seen any reason to, yet.

andrewk wrote: ........Most of the "F number" theory is just that ........
Most popular is: Is shows the nickle content in the alloy.

Norm

[andrewk]

As a side thought... you could do a search over on ROP in the "engine builds" section. This might give you some ideas.

[88 Coupe]

andrewk wrote: ........ on ROP in the "engine builds" section ........
Last night, I thought it would be too confusing for a beginner but, this morning, I'm seeing it as a good teaching/learning tool.

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=215d17a50da961bacf574e9bcfb269cd

Many are incomplete and should not have been posted. I haven't added any of mine because all my heads/manifolds have been modded, and I don't have the flow numbers.

The quick/fast examples, were planned before any work was ever started. Sort of like, choosing a destination, then planning what route to use, before one starts the trip.

Those plans would be based, not on random "parts", but on their planned selection, along with choices of dimensions, and machining, that will work together, as a team.

Pick the one that, you think, is closest to what you are interested in, then paste it here, and we can discuss it.

Norm


Engine Builds\Combos

[GraveReaper0]

88 Coupe wrote:
What you need to do, now, is figure out what you want to achieve.

Norm

Ok, in lamens terms, I'd like it to pop a wheelie high enough to where you can stick a pepsi bottle underneath the front wheel, if it fits the budget of $5,000 JUST FOR THE ENGINE ALONE + exhaust, trans, rear, rims+tires, suspension.

That good Coupe?? :o

[Brando]

Sounds like you want Hydraulic Suspension. :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist.

The stuff listed above is gonna cost a lot more then $5000. Fuel injection conversion kits are very pricey. Plus, the fact that I have never seen one for an Olds, it would have to be custom made...I think TBI wouldn't be too hard to incorporate. Here's what a little search on ROP brought up, http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24116&highlight=fuel+injection

Dare I mention it...MONDELLO :x can custom build an injection kit for you: http://www.mondellotwister.com/IntakeFuelSys.htm

Anyone know of others that make custom kits? I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I'm also sure MONDELLO really won't be cheap.

I would also recommend looking over the builds at ROP, I know that's what I would wanna do if I was building a 455. See what works and what doesn't from others experience.



TOC Admin
Brando

[88 Coupe]

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ I'd like it to pop a wheelie high enough to where you can stick a pepsi bottle underneath the front wheel ........
With a few simple drivetrain/chassis mods, you can do that with the engine you already have.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ if it fits the budget of $5,000 JUST FOR THE ENGINE ALONE ........
Didn't I already address your budget? Several times? Or did you miss them, because I didn't use caps?

Here is the first time, again.
88 Coupe wrote: GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ My budget for the engine alone is $5,000 ........
OK. Using performance quality parts, that's about enough for a simple street/strip rebuild, and a 6 pack.
GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ That good Coupe?
Not even a start.

When you decide to get serious, let me know.

Norm

[GraveReaper0]

Brando wrote:

Dare I mention it...MONDELLO :x can custom build an injection kit for you: http://www.mondellotwister.com/IntakeFuelSys.htm

TOC Admin
Brando

That is kool. The 4150 posiflow is looking sexy, and 400 buks doesnt seem to be a bad price. But whats the difference between standard and stuffer?


Coupe: What is it that you want?? I got 5k and want a 455 in ma car, I want it to run on pump gas premium, drive it 90% street/10%strip, looking for around 500-600 horses, and have it run a 1/4 mile as close to low 10s as possible.

How about this Coupe:
Quote:
455+.030, ported C heads, 255/263 dur. .576/.593 lift, 1050 dom. torker, 11.4-1 comp. ati 9 in. converter, 12 bolt 4.11, 30 in radials, 1st time out this year it went 10.8@ 122mph 1.44 60ft. with some tuning who knows. p.s. this is a 3500lb street car.

Don't know what it means, but its a 455 that almost ran a 1/4 in 10s.

[88 Coupe]

andrewk wrote: ........ I would talk to some reputable Olds engine builders ........
All of them (with one possible exception) will start by asking the same questions we have asked, and any info they give, will be based on his answers to those questions.

Sort of, like what we've been trying to do.

Brando wrote: Dare I mention it...MONDELLO ........
Joe is extremely knowledgable, reputable, and a good businessman. I only stopped buying from him, when he moved away from this area, because I don't do mail order.

He has since retired, and is no longer connected with the business that bears his name. Anything they sell, can be purchased, over the counter, within 40 miles of my home.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ and 400 buks doesnt seem to be a bad price ........
That 400 +shipping, will get you the bare manifold, only. Any mods required to make it suitable for FI use, will cost extra. Check Ebay for a used Torker or Holley Street Dominator. Little difference (read expense) in the machining required to adapt any of them to accept FI components.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ What is it that you want? ........
Exactly what you've just done. You finally asked a question.

First, Read everything, and question anything/everything you do not fully understand.

Second, realize that spec'ing an engine is not the same as planning a sound system. Not as simple as making a "parts list". If it were, such lists would be posted all over the internet, and there would be no need for this discussion.

Third, know that the specs for any engine are chosen to match, not only it's intended use, but also, the way the car will be set up.

We are trying to find out what you want. In order for that to happen, you must read, understand, and answer/reply to all questions/information you are given.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ I got 5k and want a 455 in ma car ........
Same as you stated in your first post. It's what I based all my previous questions/comments on.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ I want it to run on pump gas premium, drive it 90% street/10%strip, looking for around 500-600 horses, and have it run a 1/4 mile as close to low 10s as possible ........
Now we are getting somewhere. There will be requests for more information, as we move along.

Do you have any idea what it might take to run a low ten? With a 455 Olds? More than once?

Spend some time spectating at your local strip, to find out what it takes. If there are no 455s, or no Olds at all, it doesn't matter. You only want to learn what it takes.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ How about this, Coupe:

Quote:
455+.030, ported C heads, 255/263 dur. .576/.593 lift, 1050 dom. torker, 11.4-1 comp. ati 9 in. converter, 12 bolt 4.11, 30 in radials, 1st time out this year it went 10.8@ 122mph 1.44 60ft. with some tuning who knows. p.s. this is a 3500lb street car.
Not one of those that should have been posted in the "Proven Combos" section.

Since the subject is the engine only, it's what I'll deal with.

Plus .03. It's no longer a 455, it's now a 461 = No help.

Poted "C" heads. No flow numbers = no help.

255/263, .576/.593. Cam duration and lift only = no help.

1050 on a Torker. Out of the box? = No help.

11.4-1 = Not using pump gas with that cam = Slim chance it's driven regularly on the street.

GraveReaper0 wrote: ........ Don't know what it means, but its a 455 that almost ran a 1/4 in 10s.
Almost? 10.00000 is a ten. 10.8 is a ten. 10.99999 is a ten.

It means he put together a combo that took 10.8 sec to cover a ¼ mile, from a stop, and was doing 122 MPH at the end. It took 1.44 seconds complete the first 60 ft of that ¼ mile. Nothing more.

The 60" time is an indication of how well the car is set up, and has little to do with the engine.

Now that you've given us a rough idea what you goal is, we can look for a better example to work with.

Norm

[88delta88]

An idea for a hot 455 under $5000... Look for one that has already been built, used, and is now for sale. I am sure ebay would be a good place to start.

This way, you can avoid the hassle of dropping valuable $$$ into all kinds of name brand parts, slapping them together, and realising that it doesnt perform like you expected.

The only drawback is, you miss out on the education of building an engine. If just getting a hot engine into your car is the goal, than installing an engine is a challenge too, maybe more like what you are looking for?

[88 Coupe]

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7603&sid=639f3f9b9f010a164ee5f9466d6ac8ec

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6219&sid=639f3f9b9f010a164ee5f9466d6ac8ec

[GraveReaper0]

88 Coupe wrote: http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7603&sid=639f3f9b9f010a164ee5f9466d6ac8ec



Kool. 455 runin in 10s and around 600 horses. Works for me :D
But how much was that engine?? i see he's got a hurst shifter, is that the same as the slap shifter??
And can I get the same times with an auto turbo 400 with a shift kit? I love cruising, and cruising and shifting don't go together.

Now I know if I want boost it'll go over the 5k budget. So what would would happen if I were to put a supercharger on the engine above, can that engine take the extra boost? And how far up would it stick out, and what kind of a name should I be looking into?

[andrewk]

Quote: Now I know if I want boost it'll go over the 5k budget. So what would would happen if I were to put a supercharger on the engine above, can that engine take the extra boost?

No way in hell. At least how it sits. You would have to drop the compression ration in the 7.5- 8 :1 range for a forced induction setup. That engine is probably somewhere in the 9-10 :1 range, but I am not sure. Do you really need forced induction though?