The Oldsmobile Connection

[andrewk]

91parkave wrote: 88 Coupe wrote: 91buickman wrote: ........ its painted black ........
I am surprised.

Black attracts heat. Is your goal to heat the incoming air?

Norm

alright ....... so in a dark enviorment i dont see the black paint attracting any more heat than any other color. We all know black attracts more light energy but when there is no light present than what makes it any diffrent from white,blue,purple etc....

Didn't know you had a dark room under the hood... :photo:

What makes it different is that what light and radiation is there, is absorbed, not reflected. This could lead to heatsoak, and inaccurate MAF readings. I would be surprised if it ran at all-

It is a glass half-full/half-empty arguement, but in my educational experience, it has been said that black doesn't attract heat, but rather, absorbs it. However, that point is strictly academic, and for all intents and purposes here, black attracts heat.

I find it interesting that you claim that aluminum foil (and the fact that you have your pipe wrapped shiny side out) will reflect heat where there is no light... With no light, how can there be a reflection? ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

[91parkave]

The alumium foil acts like another exaust heat shield. It dosent really "reflect" exaust heat but keeps it trapped inside the exaust pipe. And yes when the hood is closed behind the radiator it is dark under the hood. so what llight energy would there too be absorbed??

[andrewk]

91parkave wrote: The alumium foil acts like another exaust heat shield. It dosent really "reflect" exaust heat but keeps it trapped inside the exaust pipe.

So then what's the idea behind removing the stock shield? Certainly if GM could use Reynolds Wrap and have it be more effective, they would have done that instead of the shield they implemented. I do not believe you can engineer it better, and that's not saying much about GM.

As for black- Look up thermal radiation and thermodynamics-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation

Black does not refract anything- light, radiation, etc. The properties of thermodynamics go past the visual spectrum, so the presence of light does not necessarily matter, since the black body properties of objects go into the infrared.

This goes to show the thermodynamic ignorance of many on the Internet.

[andrewk]

91parkave wrote: Bonneville club dissed the PVc when i brought it up because they THINK it would release toxic fumes from it warping even though intake temps never go above 120 degrees and thats moving air! :roll:

They aren't the only ones that feel that way. It is becoming well documented too. When I worked for my Grandfather as a plumber's "apprentice" in High School, The only known dangers were the release of hydrochloric acid when incinerated. It is becoming known that the side effects are far greater.

For instance-

ecocycle.org wrote: In use, the toxic substances added to soften or stabilize the plastic do not bind to the toy, bottle, or other product and are therefore prone to leaching. When your child or pet chews on a plastic PVC toy, for example, they can be ingesting these chemicals. One such chemical, DEHP, has been designated a “probable carcinogen” by the EPA.

Because so many different additives are used to make PVC, recycling the plastic is extremely difficult, and any #3 bottles that make it into the recycling stream can contaminate and ruin a load of #1 bottles. When incinerated, PVC forms dioxins, a highly toxic group of chemicals that build up in the food chain. When landfilled, PVC poses significant long-term environmental threats as chemical additives can leach into groundwater.


BTW, while internal intake temps that you measured (if you did) were only 120, under-hood temps far exceed that, and probably more than double it at their peak.

[91parkave]

intake temps were measured in in rush hour traffic in the hot ass weather of georgia with around 100% humidity my engine temps never go over 190 because i have my fans set to turn on at 170degrees i also have a drilled 180 degree thermostat. my PVc intake shows no discoloration or warping the material hasnt lost any integrity. the studies of PVC i am well aware of but dont mean jack s*** to me because i see no symtoms in the real world application. These guys are talking paper im talking real world, the two dont always mix. As for the heat shield thing the alumium foil IMO is wrapped tightly around the pipe so it has a chance to reflect the heat quicker than a heat shield would, since i have both on there, the heat radiated of the pipe is non existent. like i said earlier i can lay my bare hand on the crossover pipe with out burning my hands at first touch.

[andrewk]

91parkave wrote: intake temps were measured in in rush hour traffic in the hot ass weather of georgia with around 100% humidity my engine temps never go over 190 because i have my fans set to turn on at 170degrees i also have a drilled 180 degree thermostat.

Under-hood temps are not synonymous with internal engine (coolant/oil) temps.

Quote: my PVc intake shows no discoloration or warping the material hasnt lost any integrity. the studies of PVC i am well aware of but dont mean jack s*** to me because i see no symtoms in the real world application.

Didn't know you had the equipment to determine the integrity of the pipe. I am not saying that you are at risk, but just because you "don't see it" does not mean the risk isn't there. It's a legit study, and could be a serious health risk in the future. None are so blind as those that refuse to see.

Quote: These guys are talking paper im talking real world, the two dont always mix.

Only when it's convenient for your point. See the "turbulence" debate. You were arguing paper, not real-world.

Quote: As for the heat shield thing the alumium foil IMO is wrapped tightly around the pipe so it has a chance to reflect the heat quicker than a heat shield would

Opinions are not what make engineers design something. In my opinion you would have done better to take the aluminum foil you used and put some potatoes in it, and cook it on the grill. At least then you’d have something to show for it.


Quote: since i have both on there

Not what you said earlier-

Quote: take the heat shield off and wrap aluminum foil around the pipe with several layers to avoid the heat escaping from the pipe.

So which is it?


Quote: the heat radiated of the pipe is non existent.

Not true in the least.


Quote: like i said earlier i can lay my bare hand on the crossover pipe with out burning my hands at first touch.

You could do it to a bare pipe in that location too. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

[91parkave]

[quote="andrewk"] 91parkave wrote: intake temps were measured in in rush hour traffic in the hot ass weather of georgia with around 100% humidity my engine temps never go over 190 because i have my fans set to turn on at 170degrees i also have a drilled 180 degree thermostat.

Under-hood temps are not synonymous with internal engine (coolant/oil) temps.

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really soooooooo inernal combustion isnt the cause of underhood temps?
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Quote: my PVc intake shows no discoloration or warping the material hasnt lost any integrity. the studies of PVC i am well aware of but dont mean jack s*** to me because i see no symtoms in the real world application.

Didn't know you had the equipment to determine the integrity of the pipe. I am not saying that you are at risk, but just because you "don't see it" does not mean the risk isn't there. It's a legit study, and could be a serious health risk in the future. None are so blind as those that refuse to see.

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you dont have to be a rocket scientist to look at a pipe and tell if it has cracks or distortion, discoloration etc..... and ummmmmm none of those.
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Quote: These guys are talking paper im talking real world, the two dont always mix.

Only when it's convenient for your point. See the "turbulence" debate. You were arguing paper, not real-world.

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uh no no.
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Quote: As for the heat shield thing the alumium foil IMO is wrapped tightly around the pipe so it has a chance to reflect the heat quicker than a heat shield would

Opinions are not what make engineers design something. In my opinion you would have done better to take the aluminum foil you used and put some potatoes in it, and cook it on the grill. At least then you’d have something to show for it.

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opinions are like assholes evrybody has them.
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Quote: since i have both on there

Not what you said earlier-

Quote: take the heat shield off and wrap aluminum foil around the pipe with several layers to avoid the heat escaping from the pipe.

So which is it?

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yea, must of forgot to type put the heatshield back on ...my bad
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Quote: the heat radiated of the pipe is non existent.

Not true in the least.


Quote: like i said earlier i can lay my bare hand on the crossover pipe with out burning my hands at first touch.

You could do it to a bare pipe in that location too. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

--------------------------
Really so your telling me now that the exaust crossover is cool enough to keep your hand on it, when the engines running.....yea right

[andrewk]

91parkave wrote:
really soooooooo inernal combustion isnt the cause of underhood temps?

Let me rephrase. If your coolant temp is 180, that doesn't mean that the temp under the hood is 180. Internal combustion is the cause of under hood temps, and the combustion temperature is well over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. That elevates exhaust temps, and the exhaust will radiate heat under the hood, leading to temperatures under the hood in excess of what the "engine temp" is. Take an infrared thermometer and check it out sometime. Exhaust temps are one of a few factors that cause the temps under the hood to be higher than coolant temps. BTW, synonymous means "the same", if you didn't know.


Quote:
you dont have to be a rocket scientist to look at a pipe and tell if it has cracks or distortion, discoloration etc..... and ummmmmm none of those.

OK.




91parkave wrote: andrewk wrote: Only when it's convenient for your point. See the "turbulence" debate. You were arguing paper, not real-world.

uh no no.

You still haven't found us any data to prove otherwise.


Quote:
opinions are like assholes evrybody has them.

And they all stink. You brought your opinion into it, not me.


91parkave wrote: yea, must of forgot to type put the heatshield back on ...my bad

Thats a funny looking factory heat shield...



Looks to me like the foil might be wrapped on the outside of the OE shield. I thought you said it should be under it? (And wrapped shiny side in?) Or are those some good potatoes cookin on there? :lol:

91parkave wrote: Really so your telling me now that the exaust crossover is cool enough to keep your hand on it, when the engines running.....yea right

At "first touch", you bet your ass I can. Probably no more than 5-10 seconds.

Anything you'd like to add on thermodynamics, or are we done with that one?

[andrewk]

I guess we must be done here.

[91parkave]

andrewk wrote: 91parkave wrote:
really soooooooo inernal combustion isnt the cause of underhood temps?

Let me rephrase. If your coolant temp is 180, that doesn't mean that the temp under the hood is 180. Internal combustion is the cause of under hood temps, and the combustion temperature is well over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. That elevates exhaust temps, and the exhaust will radiate heat under the hood, leading to temperatures under the hood in excess of what the "engine temp" is. Take an infrared thermometer and check it out sometime. Exhaust temps are one of a few factors that cause the temps under the hood to be higher than coolant temps. BTW, synonymous means "the same", if you didn't know.

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well darn i always thought synonymous ment diffrent :roll: i never said otherwise..........
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Quote:
you dont have to be a rocket scientist to look at a pipe and tell if it has cracks or distortion, discoloration etc..... and ummmmmm none of those.

OK.




91parkave wrote: andrewk wrote: Only when it's convenient for your point. See the "turbulence" debate. You were arguing paper, not real-world.

uh no no.

You still haven't found us any data to prove otherwise.


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if you look a page or 2 back you ll see the link i posted to bonneville club. read and then come back.
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Quote:

opinions are like assholes evrybody has them.

And they all stink. You brought your opinion into it, not me.


91parkave wrote: yea, must of forgot to type put the heatshield back on ...my bad

Thats a funny looking factory heat shield...



Looks to me like the foil might be wrapped on the outside of the OE shield. I thought you said it should be under it? (And wrapped shiny side in?) Or are those some good potatoes cookin on there? :lol:

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no potatoes, thats when i had it over the heat shield and under it.
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91parkave wrote: Really so your telling me now that the exaust crossover is cool enough to keep your hand on it, when the engines running.....yea right

At "first touch", you bet your ass I can. Probably no more than 5-10 seconds.

-----------------
B.S all over again

Anything you'd like to add on thermodynamics, or are we done with that one?

[andrewk]

Quote: if you look a page or 2 back you ll see the link i posted to bonneville club. read and then come back.

There is no data there, just more opinion and speculation. There is not any expansion on the topic, so one would assume that there is no data. Nice try though.

Quote: well darn i always thought synonymous ment diffrent Rolling Eyes i never said otherwise..........

Really?

Quote: really soooooooo inernal combustion isnt the cause of underhood temps?

You are the one that claimed that your under-hood temps were never more than 190.

Quote: no potatoes, thats when i had it over the heat shield and under it.

So you took it off? Why? Need the foil for the grill? :lol:

Quote: B.S all over again

Try it. it's hot, but not hot enough to give you a burn right away. I did it accidentally when diagnosing a spark problem on a 3800 last summer.

[91parkave]

andrewk wrote: Quote: if you look a page or 2 back you ll see the link i posted to bonneville club. read and then come back.

There is no data there, just more opinion and speculation. There is not any expansion on the topic, so one would assume that there is no data. Nice try though.

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so where is your factual proof? you have posted your opinion all throuout about turbulence and such.
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Quote: well darn i always thought synonymous ment diffrent Rolling Eyes i never said otherwise..........

Really?

Quote: really soooooooo inernal combustion isnt the cause of underhood temps?

You are the one that claimed that your under-hood temps were never more than 190.

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please quote where i said that my underhood temps were 190 degrees.....
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Quote: no potatoes, thats when i had it over the heat shield and under it.

So you took it off? Why? Need the foil for the grill? :lol:

Quote: B.S all over again

Try it. it's hot, but not hot enough to give you a burn right away. I did it accidentally when diagnosing a spark problem on a 3800 last summer.

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so you had your hands on the exaust pipe crossover on a 3800 for a spark problem??? hmmm and your giving advice?
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[88 Coupe]

91buickman wrote: ........ and your giving advice?
Yes, he actually offers relevant information in an easy to read format, as opposed to your lies, childish arguments, obfuscation, and diversions.

Grow up, and get back on topic.

Norm

[OldsGuy]

Interesting read, after nine pages and half an hour of my time. I still know what I know about underhood temperatures and effects on cold-air-intake, but I know something else too. Somebody doesn't know much at all and isn't willing to admit it. Open up you eyes 91parkave, your'e wrong.


jeesh......

[andrewk]

Hi Norm, Oldsguy, all,

Good to see someone else is following along too.

91, we have already been over this-

Quote: so where is your factual proof? you have posted your opinion all throuout about turbulence and such.

andrew wrote:
To see my proof, you have to go no further than the stock setup in your car.

Is the stock setup made of flex-duct type material? Does it work reliably? Does it let the MAF give accurate readings? The answer to all of these, is yes. Using a stock set up, that probably causes more "turbulence" as an example contrary to your theory would be factual. My opinion is what it is because of where the facts lead me.

Quote: please quote where i said that my underhood temps were 190 degrees.....

Quote: intake temps were measured in in rush hour traffic in the hot ass weather of georgia with around 100% humidity my engine temps never go over 190 because i have my fans set to turn on at 170degrees i also have a drilled 180 degree thermostat.

In all fairness, you never said underhood. However you were using this as a justification for how your PVC could maintain integrity. I said that the two weren't the same- you didn't seem to understand that, as you were using your engine temps as your data-

Quote: so you had your hands on the exaust pipe crossover on a 3800 for a spark problem??? hmmm and your giving advice?

I am 6' 3" tall, and was trying to find something to brace myself on with my right hand, as I was trying to find a dead cylinder with the test light in my left hand. Didn't touch it long-