The Oldsmobile Connection

[91parkave]

fair enough you should work on your approach though
Your experience i take is with old school. running drier duct has a creases which creates very very turbulent air that isnt firendly to cars equiped with fuel injection/maf snensors. smoother the better also air intake temps determine how much timing advance we get from the computer thus the hotter the intake temps the less timing we get which equals less HP. My ambient air temps barley reach 10 degress above ambient temp which is very good. With carburators it dosent matter per say intake temps , Maf sensor readings............ PVC or equivelent under the hoods of these cars resist heat soak more than aluminum ever will. as for MAF sensors they have a "screen" to straighten out turbulent air flow but the less the better though

[91parkave]

i also apologize to the board for my cursing didnt see the edit button till it didnt mater anymore 8-)

[88 Coupe]

91parkave wrote: ........ you should work on your approach though ........
You should work on your reading comprehension.

Quote: ........ drier duct ........
It is called Flex Duct. It was first, and still is, used in many HVAC applications. Its flow characteristics are well documented.

Quote: ........ has a creases which creates very very turbulent air ........
Not much more than your K&N type filter, although compared to galvanized, it does muffle sound and slow velocity a bit.

Quote: ........ that isn't friendly to cars equipped with fuel injection/maf sensors ........
Turbulence is not friendly to carbs either. It belongs in the combustion chamber.

Quote: ........ PVC or equivalent under the hoods of these cars resist heat soak more than aluminum ever will ........
Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?

Quote: ........ With carburetors it doesn't matter per say intake temps ........
First turbulence, now intake temps. It's amazing that my cars run at all.

Quote: ........ as for MAF sensors they have a "screen" to straighten out turbulent air flow ........
OK. If one were to remove that screen, would there be a measurable loss of power?

Quote: ........ but the less the better though
That is why I spent so much time grinding on my manifold and intake ports.

91parkave wrote: ........ so far im running 15.097 ........
How did that answer my question?

Norm

[91parkave]

88 Coupe wrote: 91parkave wrote: ........ you should work on your approach though ........
You should work on your reading comprehension.

maybe you should take your own advice.

Quote: ........ drier duct ........
It is called Flex Duct. It was first, and still is, used in many HVAC applications. Its flow characteristics are well documented.
look below
Quote: ........ has a creases which creates very very turbulent air ........
Not much more than your K&N type filter, although compared to galvanized, it does muffle sound and slow velocity a bit.

actualy theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results

Quote: ........ that isn't friendly to cars equipped with fuel injection/maf sensors ........
Turbulence is not friendly to carbs either. It belongs in the combustion chamber.

Quote: ........ PVC or equivalent under the hoods of these cars resist heat soak more than aluminum ever will ........
Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?
heat soak affects incoming air, its constantly moving...yes...but also affected by the tube it runs through.

Quote: ........ With carburetors it doesn't matter per say intake temps ........
First turbulence, now intake temps. It's amazing that my cars run at all.
guess you didnt catch the "per say" meaning and what are you comparing to to make this arguement?

Quote: ........ as for MAF sensors they have a "screen" to straighten out turbulent air flow ........
OK. If one were to remove that screen, would there be a measurable loss of power? using factory air intake parts......yes a/f ratio would richen even more

Quote: ........ but the less the better though
That is why I spent so much time grinding on my manifold and intake ports.

youre talking about your v8 or the 3.8 series 1?? big diffrence :shock:
91parkave wrote: ........ so far im running 15.097 ........
How did that answer my question?

you asked what times e.t i was running. compare that to a stock series 1 olds 98 or parkave there at 16's....nuff said

Norm

[88 Coupe]

91parkave wrote: ........ actually theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results ........
Cite a couple.

Since turbulence does not belong in HVAC systems, why is flex used in those applications?

91parkave wrote: 88 Coupe wrote: ........ Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?
heat soak affects incoming air, its constantly moving...yes...but also affected by the tube it runs through.
Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?

Quote: ........ guess you didn't catch the "per say" meaning ........
I did. When it gets to the combustion chamber, a temp change at the OAI mouth makes the same difference, regardless of how the fuel is introduced.

Quote: ........ and what are you comparing to to make this argument? ........
Your comparison of my intake system to your intake system.

Quote: ........ yes a/f ratio would richen even more ........
Why have 3800 types been removing that screen to increase power?

Quote: ........ youre talking about your v8 or the 3.8 series 1?? big difference ........
We have all heard that argument before. My answer was, and still is: “an air pump, is an air pump, is an air pump”.

91parkave wrote: ........ you asked what times e.t i was running ........
Not what I asked.

88 Coupe wrote: How much HP/ET/MPH did you gain?
Refer back to my statement about your reading comprehension.

Norm

[91parkave]

88 Coupe wrote: 91parkave wrote: ........ actually theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results ........
Cite a couple.

Since turbulence does not belong in HVAC systems, why is flex used in those applications?

Think about this HVAC systems dont use Mass air flow sensors thus the window for turbulent air is alot bigger

91parkave wrote: 88 Coupe wrote: ........ Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?
heat soak affects incoming air, its constantly moving...yes...but also affected by the tube it runs through.
Again, how does that affect the air flowing through it?

Think of a aluminum water pipe if i torch the pipe constantly the water going through it will be at a higher temp same thing with airflow-hot pipe hot air. If youre only drag racing its not a issue but for a daily driver it is. thus the term "heat soak"

Quote: ........ guess you didn't catch the "per say" meaning ........
I did. When it gets to the combustion chamber, a temp change at the OAI mouth makes the same difference, regardless of how the fuel is introduced.

what?

Quote: ........ and what are you comparing to to make this argument? ........
Your comparison of my intake system to your intake system.

so where is your intake system so we can get a clear picture of our approaches towards intake systems

Quote: ........ yes a/f ratio would richen even more ........
Why have 3800 types been removing that screen to increase power?

more air flow but only 50CFM more if that much. The dyno results i seen a long time ago indicate you actually lose some top end power but thats it.

Quote: ........ youre talking about your v8 or the 3.8 series 1?? big difference ........
We have all heard that argument before. My answer was, and still is: “an air pump, is an air pump, is an air pump”.

how much air can a big block pump compared to a 231 cu in OHV v6? big diffrence in air pumps in my opinion

91parkave wrote: ........ you asked what times e.t i was running ........
Not what I asked.



88 Coupe wrote: How much HP/ET/MPH did you gain?
Refer back to my statement about your reading comprehension.

I never went to the track stock however i did do the 1/8 mile stock with just a flow master back then and that was a 11.2 which works out to being a 16 second quarter mile so yes i ripped off a full second

Norm

[88 Coupe]

91parkave wrote: ........ actually theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results ........
Again, cite a couple.

91parkave wrote: ........ Think about this HVAC systems dont use Mass air flow sensors thus the window for turbulent air is a lot bigger ........
I have not tried using a MAF in an HVAC duct, but from what I have observed, the airflow in a 3” duct is about as smooth as it is in a 30” duct.

91parkave wrote: ........ same thing with airflow-hot pipe hot air. ........
The following is from http://www.aempower.com/Faqs.aspx?FaqCategoryID=18#16

AEM Chief Engineer wrote: Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power.
91parkave wrote: ........ what? .......
Which part do you not understand?

91parkave wrote: ........ so where is your intake system so we can get a clear picture of our approaches towards intake systems ........
Again, you were doing the comparing.

In the future, I will not follow you off topic.

91parkave wrote: ........ The dyno results i seen a long time ago indicate you actually lose some top end power ........
So long ago, that you cannot reference the sheets?

Was the testing done on an engine or chassis dyno? How qualified was the operator? How comprehensive were the tests?

91parkave wrote: ........ how much air can a big block pump compared to a 231 cu in OHV v6? big diffrence in air pumps in my opinion ........
The differences in volume, are not relevant to this topic. If you want to discuss them, start a new thread.

91parkave wrote: ........ I never went to the track stock however i did do the 1/8 mile stock with just a flow master back then and that was a 11.2 which works out to being a 16 second quarter mile so yes i ripped off a full second
No baseline. Then you interpolated your ¼ mi. ET from a ⅛ mi. timeslip.

And to top it off, you claim a one second gain from a home made CAI, only.

I could only be more impressed if you had posted the relevant numbers, from both timeslips.

Norm

[91parkave]

88 Coupe wrote: 91parkave wrote: ........ actually theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results ........
Again, cite a couple.

91parkave wrote: ........ Think about this HVAC systems dont use Mass air flow sensors thus the window for turbulent air is a lot bigger ........
I have not tried using a MAF in an HVAC duct, but from what I have observed, the airflow in a 3” duct is about as smooth as it is in a 30” duct.

ok..........

91parkave wrote: ........ same thing with airflow-hot pipe hot air. ........
The following is from http://www.aempower.com/Faqs.aspx?FaqCategoryID=18#16

AEM Chief Engineer wrote: Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power.
91parkave wrote: ........ what? .......
Which part do you not understand?

if that were true why do they make cold air intakes :roll: think about the hipocracy of that statement coming from people who sell them

91parkave wrote: ........ so where is your intake system so we can get a clear picture of our approaches towards intake systems ........
Again, you were doing the comparing.

In the future, I will not follow you off topic.

are you serious you brought this whole thing up read what you typed on the first page and on the 2nd you clearly state a comparison between mine and yours. :shock:

91parkave wrote: ........ The dyno results i seen a long time ago indicate you actually lose some top end power ........
So long ago, that you cannot reference the sheets?

it was 2005 IIRC. so yes that long ago

Was the testing done on an engine or chassis dyno? How qualified was the operator? How comprehensive were the tests?

IIRC 2 runs avg hp. 30 minute cool down between the tests

91parkave wrote: ........ how much air can a big block pump compared to a 231 cu in OHV v6? big diffrence in air pumps in my opinion ........
The differences in volume, are not relevant to this topic. If you want to discuss them, start a new thread.

then why did you bring it up????

91parkave wrote: ........ I never went to the track stock however i did do the 1/8 mile stock with just a flow master back then and that was a 11.2 which works out to being a 16 second quarter mile so yes i ripped off a full second
No baseline. Then you interpolated your ¼ mi. ET from a ⅛ mi. timeslip.

And to top it off, you claim a one second gain from a home made CAI, only.

I could only be more impressed if you had posted the relevant numbers, from both timeslips.

i never claimed that a full second from a CAI only- look at my signature thats what got me there but that was before i ported the LIM and and exaust mani's and 85mm MAF and l36 TB
Norm

[88 Coupe]

91parkave wrote: ........ actually theres been many studies on how turbulent flexible tubing is. smooth bends and couplers get the best results ........
Again, cite a couple.

Norm

[88 Coupe]

91parkave wrote: ........ i never claimed that a full second from a CAI only ........
Read this one again.

91parkave wrote: ........ one of the best results i had was ........
88 Coupe wrote: How much HP/ET/MPH did you gain?
........ simple intake and exaust mods ive made so far im running 15.097 ........
Easy to see why you got banned from that other Board.

Norm

[andrewk]

Haven't been around much, but here is my take on this-

Quote: running drier duct has a creases which creates very very turbulent air that isnt firendly to cars equiped with fuel injection/maf snensors.

What difference does it [turbulence] make? Seems to me the engine needs air, and what difference does it make if the molecules are waving around a bit? The quantity and temperature of the air are what matters, and its what the MAF senses. Turbulence would not make the volume of air that the MAF sees oscillate, nor would it change the temp, so how can it affect the MAF. I am sure there could be "marginal" differences in these [drier duct vs. smooth wall pipe] readings (read in single digit, or fractional percentages) But in the applications on this board, I am inclined to say that it doesn't matter. Hell, most factory setups use a "flex duct" of sorts in which the MAF is inserted. If it was such a horrible idea, it would not be done.

Quote: smoother the better

Sure, but at what performance level does it matter? I don't think anyone on this board is at that level.

Quote: also air intake temps determine how much timing advance we get from the computer thus the hotter the intake temps the less timing we get which equals less HP.

Its actually intake temp at the MAF, correct? So if the MAF is cool...

Quote: My ambient air temps barley reach 10 degress above ambient temp which is very good.


With what measuring apparatus did you discover this?

Quote: With carburators it dosent matter per say intake temps , Maf sensor readings............ PVC or equivelent under the hoods of these cars resist heat soak more than aluminum ever will.

Intake temps will affect all engines, from your Briggs and Stratton powered lawnmower to a big cargo ship engine. While they don't have MAF's, that doesn't mean that a hot as heck intake wouldn't adversely affect performance.

Quote: Aluminum also dissipates heat very quickly. Does PVC? It may not get as hot as fast, but I'll bet it stays hotter longer. I don't have any data to back this, however.

Quote: as for MAF sensors they have a "screen" to straighten out turbulent air flow but the less the better though

Which brings me full circle here.... Whats the difference?

And please, learn some code.... I can barely differentiate these recent posts...

Andrew

[91parkave]

88 Coupe wrote: 91parkave wrote: ........ i never claimed that a full second from a CAI only ........
Read this one again.



91parkave wrote: ........ one of the best results i had was ........
88 Coupe wrote: How much HP/ET/MPH did you gain?
........ simple intake and exaust mods ive made so far im running 15.097 ........
Easy to see why you got banned from that other Board.

wow it clearly states simple intake AND EXAUST mods i never said what else i had done to it at the time. And what bonneville club?? you have no actual idea. Take your own advice and stay on topic as you stated before.

Norm

[91parkave]

andrewk wrote: Haven't been around much, but here is my take on this-

Quote: running drier duct has a creases which creates very very turbulent air that isnt firendly to cars equiped with fuel injection/maf snensors.

What difference does it [turbulence] make? Seems to me the engine needs air, and what difference does it make if the molecules are waving around a bit? The quantity and temperature of the air are what matters, and its what the MAF senses. Turbulence would not make the volume of air that the MAF sees oscillate, nor would it change the temp, so how can it affect the MAF. I am sure there could be "marginal" differences in these [drier duct vs. smooth wall pipe] readings (read in single digit, or fractional percentages) But in the applications on this board, I am inclined to say that it doesn't matter. Hell, most factory setups use a "flex duct" of sorts in which the MAF is inserted. If it was such a horrible idea, it would not be done.
---------------------------
stop an think, Now how effiecent and performance oriented was GM during the ealry 90's? yea 160 hp v6's in 3800lb cars the list goes on... How much dumb stuff did they design on their cars? ALOT. unless you think factory is better, then there no point in carrying on this conversation. Nobody said turbulence has an effect on intake temps-please re-read that. as for the other stuff hey your opinion is your opinion im simply stating mine.
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Quote: smoother the better

Sure, but at what performance level does it matter? I don't think anyone on this board is at that level.

-------------------------------
but maybe some people want to get to a higher level.
-------------------------------

Quote: also air intake temps determine how much timing advance we get from the computer thus the hotter the intake temps the less timing we get which equals less HP.

Its actually intake temp at the MAF, correct? So if the MAF is cool...

------------------------------
no a MAf wire hot/cold is how it reads airflow, Most GM's are equiped with intake air temp sensors that determine intake temps
------------------------------

Quote: My ambient air temps barley reach 10 degress above ambient temp which is very good.


With what measuring apparatus did you discover this?

------------------------------
i have a temp probe in the intake tract. i also have a scanner from time to time.
--------------------------------


Quote: With carburators it dosent matter per say intake temps , Maf sensor readings............ PVC or equivelent under the hoods of these cars resist heat soak more than aluminum ever will.

Intake temps will affect all engines, from your Briggs and Stratton powered lawnmower to a big cargo ship engine. While they don't have MAF's, that doesn't mean that a hot as heck intake wouldn't adversely affect performance.

-----------------------------
catch my meaning of per say? it means that it dosent matter as much with carburated cars compared to Fuel injection cars, because carb'ed cars DONT ADJUST TIMING like fuel injected cars do, which is why its more inmportant to have cooler intake temps for fuel injected cars for performance.
-----------------------------


Quote: Aluminum also dissipates heat very quickly. Does PVC? It may not get as hot as fast, but I'll bet it stays hotter longer. I don't have any data to back this, however.

--------------------
i have. i had my intake probe in both setups which is why i love the cheap PVC.
---------------------

Quote: as for MAF sensors they have a "screen" to straighten out turbulent air flow but the less the better though

Which brings me full circle here.... Whats the difference?

And please, learn some code.... I can barely differentiate these recent posts...
Andrew

----------------------------------------
whats the diffrence---think of a plane flying through the air the plane represents the MAF sensor smooth air smooth flying- turbulence comes plane shakes maf's dont "shake" but the readings can. straighter air flow passes through the screen faster than turbulent air can
-----------------------------------------

[raskull]

who knew cold air intakes could spark such a hostile thread :shock:

[91parkave]

its really funny when you think this topic has the most replies ive ever seen on this forum :shock: but to:raskul and 88 cutlass i was just shooting some ideas of what ive done and trial and errors ive came across. its up to you what you want to do with your car. best of luck to you