The Oldsmobile Connection

[IntrigueErin]

Per 88 Coupe's suggestion I am making this its own post.

I have seen many owners out there with similar issues to mine but nothing exactly the same that I've been able to see. If there have have been please excuse this long, redundant post. I'm trying to get all the symptoms in here so perhaps it will be more likely to ring bells.

I own a 1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue- 3.8L V6 engine. For nearly a year now I have been dealing with the car stalling out in the middle of driving. The conditions that I have found it happens most often under are:

-half tank or less of gas
-changes in weather
-lower speed driving
-city driving (lots of stop and go traffic)

I have replaced the battery, cleaned the battery terminals, cleaned out debris from under the hood, and have sprayed down (with WD40) and cleaned off as best I could the electrical components without getting in and taking things apart.

I first started having problems in winter of last year when the car started back-firing, shuddering, and being very noisy around the exhaust. I took the car to a mechanic and they checked it out- nothing was found to be wrong with my exhaust system. The mechanics told me that it was perhaps just a fluke or bad gas that had led to the engine mis-firing.

I continued to have problems like this, often leading to the engine cutting out and dashboard lighting that I had up no traction, no power steering, check engine, etc.. I got to the point where I could feeling the car almost lurching forward with the backfiring. I took the car in to a different mechanic and asked point blank if there was something wrong with my engine. He told me there wasn't.

Whenever it got cold the car was more likely to give me problems. As weather warmed up the problem of backfiring seemed to go away but instead I had the car stalling out going 70mph. It's a common occurrence now. I'll be going along and suddenly my RPM will go up and down erratically (without making any changes to how I was pushing the accelerator) and then it drops to zero, my engine, dies, I lose power steering, anti-lock brakes, and I have to coast to the side of the road. At this point, my oil light comes on as well as my check engine soon light.

I have had my car in to two mechanics recently and the answers I've gotten back have been my car is fine when they test it but that my symptoms sound like something being wrong in my fuel system- one has said it sounds like it might be my fuel pump going bad.

I have found that when I feel the car starting to stall I can pull it out by pumping the accelerator rapidly. It sounds like it starts something back up again because the car starts to coast when it's about to stall (kind of flat-lining as best as I can describe) but when I pump the accelerator I after a moment or two hear a roar in the engine and things go back to normal. When the car does stall all I usually have to do is strong-arm it to the side of the road, put it in park, turn it off, and then turn it back on, and we're back in business. I usually don't even have to wait.

I appreciate any help that can be given. Thank you.

[IntrigueErin]

It has been suggested by someone I know that I might need to replace my fuel filter. I know the filter is located toward the back of the car on the driver's side. Off-hand, does anyone know what type of fuel filter is used in the 98 Olds Intrigue? I've looked in the book that came with the car and done some research online but no luck so far.

I'll give this a try hopefully this weekend. Cross your fingers that this is the solution I've been looking for. Much appreciated.

[IntrigueErin]

I had to have the filter replaced by a mechanic. It was actually rusted in place so they had to cut and replace part of my fuel line to get the filter off. Turns out it was the original filter- 11 years and over 100,000 miles on it. No wonder I was having a problem with fuel pressure. To say I was embarrassed by this would be an understatement. I had no idea that it had never been replaced (I'm the third owner for this car- my uncle and my mom were the previous owners so I figured this was something they had addressed at least once).

Any ways, I've been tootling around with my car today and I really notice a difference- no stalling so far. Here's hoping this is the solution I've been searching for.

[IntrigueErin]

Ugh... more fun...

I was driving up a road today, about four miles into my drive, going around 55mph when the accelerator started giving me more resistance than it usually does and then the engine misfired and quit. It did this twice today. The 'Change Oil' light started blinking. I checked the manual and it said this is because the engine misfired. I started it back up and the blinking stopped and I had no more warning lights on the dash. I drove my car around in all different conditions today to test it out but it didn't do it again.

Any idea why it's doing this? I have changed the battery and the fuel filter. Several people have suggested my spark plugs are loose. I doubt they have ever been replaced. I'll probably give that a try this weekend and see if it makes a difference.

[88 Coupe]

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ happens most often under are:

-half tank or less of gas
-changes in weather
-lower speed driving
-city driving (lots of stop and go traffic) ........
- I don't see a connection between the symptoms and the fuel level.
- Occurrence at lower RPM/speed conditions points to electrical/electronics, rather than fuel.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ replaced the battery ........
Not related to any of the symptoms you've outlined.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ sprayed down (with WD40) and cleaned off as best I could the electrical components ........
Cleaning externals doesn't address power/ground connections.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ without getting in and taking things apart ........
"Taking things apart" and cleaning the mating surfaces, is the best way to insure adequate grounding.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ started back-firing, shuddering, and being very noisy around the exhaust ........
Gunshots out of the exhaust?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ mechanics told me that it was perhaps just a fluke or bad gas .......
If it only happened once, it could be called a "fluke", while "Bad gas" symptoms would not go away until the supply was replaced with "good gas" from the tank.

Looks like you were talking to a "parts changer" as opposed to a competent mechanic.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ and dashboard lighting that I had up no traction, no power steering, check engine, etc ........
Before the engine actually died?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ I could feel the car almost lurching forward with the backfiring ........
Almost?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ I took the car in to a different mechanic and asked point blank if there was something wrong with my engine. He told me there wasn't ........
Since it runs normally, most of the time, he was right.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ Whenever it got cold the car was more likely to give me problems. As weather warmed up the problem of backfiring seemed to go away ........
Same day, or a different season? What temp differences?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ but instead I had the car stalling out going 70mph ........
Constant speed, or while accelerating/decelerating?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ suddenly my RPM will go up and down erratically ........
The engine, tach reading, or both?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ then it drops to zero, my engine, dies, I lose power steering, anti-lock brakes ........
Power steering pump and vacuum (power brakes) stop when the engine stops. ABS (anti lock brakes) are controlled by the computer. Did you mean "power brakes"?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ and I have to coast to the side of the road. At this point, my oil light comes on as well as my check engine soon light. .........
OP light goes on when the crankshaft stops turning. CEL can signal one, or several, potential problems and that code(s) are being stored.

Does this happen when the engine loses power, or after the car comes to a stop?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ to two mechanics recently and the answers I've gotten back have been my car is fine when they test it ........
No stored codes?

Impossible to diagnose a problem that does not exist. Many times, stored codes can "upgrade" the process to "difficult".

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ but that my symptoms sound like something being wrong in my fuel system- one has said it sounds like it might be my fuel pump going bad ........
Fuel pump, regulator, sensors, injectors, relays, etc, can easily be tested. Unless the circumstances that cause the problem are in play, the tests will be useless.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ when I feel the car starting to stall I can pull it out by pumping the accelerator rapidly ........
Looks like the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) is sending corrected data to the computer. TPS can be tested with a VOM, but I don't have the procedures and voltage specs for your application.

Hey Guys, what are the TPS specs?

In the meantime, check it for positive power and ground connections.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ to the side of the road, put it in park, turn it off, and then turn it back on, and we're back in business ........
That makes it an electrical/electronic problem, but it could still be related to the fuel system.

Will it start If you don't turn it off?

These Intermittent (therefore, hard to diagnose) issues are not uncommon with modern electronics, and among "mechanics" only a small percentage are competent diagnosticians.

Norm

[88 Coupe]

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ Several people have suggested my spark plugs are loose ........
Not consistent with your symptoms.

If the plugs (and wires) are original, and it has over 100K miles, change them, as part of the normal maintenance schedule.

Norm

[IntrigueErin]

88 Coupe wrote: IntrigueErin wrote: ........ happens most often under are:

-half tank or less of gas
-changes in weather
-lower speed driving
-city driving (lots of stop and go traffic) ........
- I don't see a connection between the symptoms and the fuel level.
- Occurrence at lower RPM/speed conditions points to electrical/electronics, rather than fuel.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ replaced the battery ........
Not related to any of the symptoms you've outlined.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ sprayed down (with WD40) and cleaned off as best I could the electrical components ........
Cleaning externals doesn't address power/ground connections.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ without getting in and taking things apart ........
"Taking things apart" and cleaning the mating surfaces, is the best way to insure adequate grounding.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ started back-firing, shuddering, and being very noisy around the exhaust ........
Gunshots out of the exhaust?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ mechanics told me that it was perhaps just a fluke or bad gas .......
If it only happened once, it could be called a "fluke", while "Bad gas" symptoms would not go away until the supply was replaced with "good gas" from the tank.

Looks like you were talking to a "parts changer" as opposed to a competent mechanic.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ and dashboard lighting that I had up no traction, no power steering, check engine, etc ........
Before the engine actually died?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ I could feel the car almost lurching forward with the backfiring ........
Almost?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ I took the car in to a different mechanic and asked point blank if there was something wrong with my engine. He told me there wasn't ........
Since it runs normally, most of the time, he was right.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ Whenever it got cold the car was more likely to give me problems. As weather warmed up the problem of backfiring seemed to go away ........
Same day, or a different season? What temp differences?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ but instead I had the car stalling out going 70mph ........
Constant speed, or while accelerating/decelerating?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ suddenly my RPM will go up and down erratically ........
The engine, tach reading, or both?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ then it drops to zero, my engine, dies, I lose power steering, anti-lock brakes ........
Power steering pump and vacuum (power brakes) stop when the engine stops. ABS (anti lock brakes) are controlled by the computer. Did you mean "power brakes"?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ and I have to coast to the side of the road. At this point, my oil light comes on as well as my check engine soon light. .........
OP light goes on when the crankshaft stops turning. CEL can signal one, or several, potential problems and that code(s) are being stored.

Does this happen when the engine loses power, or after the car comes to a stop?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ to two mechanics recently and the answers I've gotten back have been my car is fine when they test it ........
No stored codes?

Impossible to diagnose a problem that does not exist. Many times, stored codes can "upgrade" the process to "difficult".

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ but that my symptoms sound like something being wrong in my fuel system- one has said it sounds like it might be my fuel pump going bad ........
Fuel pump, regulator, sensors, injectors, relays, etc, can easily be tested. Unless the circumstances that cause the problem are in play, the tests will be useless.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ when I feel the car starting to stall I can pull it out by pumping the accelerator rapidly ........
Looks like the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) is sending corrected data to the computer. TPS can be tested with a VOM, but I don't have the procedures and voltage specs for your application.

Hey Guys, what are the TPS specs?

In the meantime, check it for positive power and ground connections.

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ to the side of the road, put it in park, turn it off, and then turn it back on, and we're back in business ........
That makes it an electrical/electronic problem, but it could still be related to the fuel system.

Will it start If you don't turn it off?

These Intermittent (therefore, hard to diagnose) issues are not uncommon with modern electronics, and among "mechanics" only a small percentage are competent diagnosticians.

Norm

I didn't think the battery was related but it was a dead battery any ways and needed replacing so we did it. I'm a little hesitant to get in and start taking things apart because this is my first time really working with the mechanics of a car. I've always been more of a body and interior maintenance girl but I'm trying to learn more because I want to keep this car. I'm going to be at my parents' in August and my father knows more about this and guide me in the process a little better... hopefully.

As for the exhaust noise- I can feel the car lurch and then a noise out the back end. Possible misfire condition? I don't know. The lights would come on after the engine died. When there is a temperature drop the car was more likely to stall. I was doing a constant speed- seems that when I'm not changing my pressure on the accelerator the car stalls. All I have is the RPM changes when the car starts wanting to stall out- no tach.

The brakes stop working normally. I'm not sure if it's the ABS going out or not. I assumed and I shouldn't have. I get the OP code when the engine loses power. I've been told by my regular mechanic that when he hooks up the car to check the computer, checking for codes (mind you, I'm not using the words he did but merely paraphrasing) that he isn't getting any codes. The only code he has gotten was a carbon (dioxide or monoxide- can't remember which he said) code that was nothing to be concerned with. It won't start if I don't turn it off first.

Thank you for the time you took going through my post.

[IntrigueErin]

88 Coupe wrote: IntrigueErin wrote: ........ Several people have suggested my spark plugs are loose ........
Not consistent with your symptoms.

If the plugs (and wires) are original, and it has over 100K miles, change them, as part of the normal maintenance schedule.

Norm

They probably are original. Given how picky my uncle and my mother were about their cars I honestly thought they had been more thorough in their maintenance. It's embarrassing and the thing is that once I fix one thing a similar problem comes back but with slightly different symptoms.

Examples: engine looses power going about 55mph if it has been sitting for an hour or so just prior but the high speed (freeway driving) stalling seems to have been fixed because I've had no more problems with it since having the fuel filter changed

[IntrigueErin]

I apologize- I do have a tach. I see it rise in number when I put the pedal to the floor, hear the engine rev, but the car does not accelerate. I'm taking the car in tomorrow to have the transmission fluid changed and see if it makes a difference- I've found out that it needs doing regardless.

UPDATE
I checked my fluid and it is brownish. It is definitely going in tomorrow to be checked out.

[phaZe]

I'm not an expert or anything, but if you're having backfires and the engine just dies it probably doesn't have to do with the power coming out of the engine. it would deal with something like fuel, power, things sending the wrong signals, etc. I'm sure 88 Coupe will be able to narrow the problem down more for you. But, if the transmission fluid is brownish you should have it changed anyways.

[88 Coupe]

IntrigueErin wrote: engine loses power going about 55mph if it has been sitting for an hour or so ........
Still dies when it loses power? Still restarts immediately after you shut the switch off?

IntrigueErin wrote: ........ It is definitely going in tomorrow to be checked out.
Take it to a Trans Specialist. They will scan for trans related codes.

They will also "read" the debris, in the pan, to determine the overall condition of the trans.

Norm

[IntrigueErin]

It's currently sitting at a transmission specialist. I took it over this morning and they took it out with a computer hooked up to it (I'm guessing that's what reads the transmission codes you were talking about, Coupe). Any ways, it came back as being "really not that bad" but definitely having some issues shifting and some shuddering.

I have access to another car for the weekend and into the first part of next week so I left it there at the advice of the specialist and the mechanic so they could take it out again when the car is cold and see what kind of codes they get. Hopefully, I caught this before it becomes a big problem and it won't be a big bill. *crosses fingers*

Thanks for everyone's help so far. Everything has been greatly appreciated.

[strokercutlass]

There are a few common issues with the Intrigues....here are a couple things to try, to see if you can duplicate the problem....

1. In a SAFE area, preferably on a straight stretch without alot of traffic, while driving down the road, wiggle the ignition switch slightly and see if the car stalls or stumbles. If it does, that would indicate a problem with the ignition switch.

2. Has anyone ever cleaned the MAF (mass airflow sensor)? If the MAF sensor wires within the sensor get dirty and contaminated, this can also cause an intermittent misfire/stall condition. If someone does clean it, BE SURE to have them use a chemical SPECIFICALLY for MAF sensors....carburetor cleaner or brake parts cleaner can damage the sensor wires within the MAF sensor.

3. Crankshaft sensor: I have personally seen several instances of intermittent stall problems on the 3.8 engines due to a failing crank sensor. If you have it replaced, make sure to find someone who has the correct alignment tool, as the sensor must be properly gapped when it is installed....it can be done without the tool, but usually produces poor results. The only way to test the crank sensor is with a lab scope, which many shops won't have, and will only show as a problem if the circumstances can be duplicated, and the car can be made to act up.

4. Ignition Module: Not extremely likely, but also a possibility.

If this vehicle came into my shop, if no trouble codes were found, I would first start by checking the MAF and cleaning it if it was found to be dirty, then go from there.

Just my .02 cents.

[IntrigueErin]

1. I've done this in the past and it doesn't do anything. I also had the ignition switch changed about a year ago and it resolved an intermittent non-start issue.

2. I doubt it. I've gotten a referral from friends to a Chevy dealership in the area that has done good work for them. Would they have the proper tools for addressing this?

3. Same response as #2. I know Chevy is a GM model so would it be safe to assume they could do work on an Oldsmobile (I would, of course, call them first to be sure they would take the car)?

4. I'll look into this if the problem persists after I get it back from the transmission folks.

I appreciate your thoughts. I have a feeling there are many more issues that will pop up as time goes on so I'm definitely going to get these things checked out at some point. Thanks again.

[88 Coupe]

strokercutlass wrote: ........ my .02 cents.
And a welcome 2¢ it is.

Norm