The Oldsmobile Connection

[rage03usa]

as some of you might remember, a few months ago i blew the engine on my 86 442. i was intent on putting a 455BB in it, but have come across a nicely built olds 350. how easy will it be to swap the 350 in? Also the 350 has the TH-350 tranny... will the tranny mate up to my driveshaft when installed?
Or would i be better off to swap the TH200-4R to the 350?
The engine puts out about 350 HP and 375 ft/lbs of torque.

Sorry if these questions are noobish.. but it will be my 1st swap.
Thx
Vince

[BigBlockOlds]

rage03usa wrote: as some of you might remember, a few months ago i blew the engine on my 86 442. i was intent on putting a 455BB in it, but have come across a nicely built olds 350. how easy will it be to swap the 350 in? Also the 350 has the TH-350 tranny... will the tranny mate up to my driveshaft when installed?
Or would i be better off to swap the TH200-4R to the 350?
The engine puts out about 350 HP and 375 ft/lbs of torque.

Sorry if these questions are noobish.. but it will be my 1st swap.
Thx
Vince

This is THE easiest swap you can do!

The 350 is EXACTLY the same size externally as the 307, so you can use all of the brackets, pulleys, and accessories from the 307 on the 350. Just pull one out and put the other one in.

As for the transmissions. The stock TH-2004R will not hold up very long with that kind of power. But I personally would not get rid of it as it is a 442 transmission and is a bit stronger than a standard TH-2004R.
You could have it rebuilt to handle the power or look at buying a new one and saving the original trans for originality sake.
I'd look into www.2004R.com I've heard a lot of good things about them and their prices aren't outrageous either.
Heck, I spent $1800 for the Art Carr TH-2004R I have in my '87 and didn't near the kind of tech help that you can get from www.2004R.com

If you were to install the TH-350 I don't believe you need to change driveshafts. The TH-350 is 27-5/8" long (for the short tail) and a TH-2004R is 27-3/4" long. But you will have to move the crossmember as the mounting for the TH-350 is farther forward than the TH-2004R.

Again, if you have the money, I think you'd like the Th-2004R better in the long run. Especially with the 3.73 gears you have out back, it makes cruising a lot more fun and your top speeds can be insane. :)

[rage03usa]

the 350 deal fell thru, but i managed to get a 81 - 85 olds 307, th350, and a 70's 350 intake for $150. What can i do to get some performance out of the 307? im looking for at least 250+ hp and 300+ ft/lbs, but prefere around the 350+ / 400+ range. Some parts of my 442 307 should still be usable, so should i grab them? would i see any benifit from using that 350 intake? or is it possible to have that 307 bored to 350? im looking to spend about 1500$ for the build up, so let me know what i should do... thx

Vince

[BigBlockOlds]

rage03usa wrote: the 350 deal fell thru, but i managed to get a 81 - 85 olds 307, th350, and a 70's 350 intake for $150. What can i do to get some performance out of the 307? im looking for at least 250+ hp and 300+ ft/lbs, but prefere around the 350+ / 400+ range. Some parts of my 442 307 should still be usable, so should i grab them? would i see any benifit from using that 350 intake? or is it possible to have that 307 bored to 350? im looking to spend about 1500$ for the build up, so let me know what i should do... thx

Vince

I hate to break the news to you but there is no way your going to get a 307 in the 350+ HP range with just $1500 and have it stay together for any lenght of time.

The problem with the 307 is that the bore is really small which limits the size of valve in the head you can use which limits your horsepower potential.

All second generation small block Olds engines use a 3.385" stroke. This includes the 260-307-330-350-403 engines.
The way Olds increased the displacement was to increase the bores size of each engine.

Here are the bore and stroke for each:

260: 3.50 x 3.385

307: 3.80 x 3.385

330: 3.938 x 3.385

350: 4.057 x 3.385

403: 4.351 x 3.385

You'll notice that the 403 has a HUGE bore. A 455 big block Olds engine has a bore of 4.126 stock so the 403 is even larger.

Needless to say, there would not be enough material in the 307 cylinder walls to bore it out to a 350. And even if there was why would you want to? You would then have a MAXED out 307 that was only as big as a STOCK 350. You would just be better off and money ahead to buy a 350 in that situation.

As far as the intake goes, you can run it but I would personally go to the junkyard and grap an '81-'85 307 aluminum A4 intake. It flows just as well as the older intakes but as a weight savings to boot. And doesn't cost a lot of money. Did the 307 you buy come with an intake and you just want to swap it out for the 350 intake? If the 307 has an intake on it currently I would check to see if its an A4. If so, stick with it.

As for your 250HP goal, its possible but at the same time, you could build a 350 or 403 for the same money and have a lot more horsepower without reaching the absolute limits of the engine itself.
Both the 350 and 403 will bolt into place of the 307 and accept all of the original accessories.

Here's the buildup of my brother's 403 that we did for his '81 Cutlass:

'77 403 block, bored .030" over (408 cid roughly)
Stock crank with new ARP main bolts
Stock rods with new ARP rod bolts
Stock replacement CAST pistons .030" over
Moroso Deep sump oil pan
Melling High Volume oil pump and pickup
Rollmaster double roller timing chain
Ultradyne hydraulic camshaft: 221/230* duration @ .050, .485"/.485" lift, 112* LS installed on a 107* centerline
7A heads (from a '72 350) with stock ports and valves. Bolt holes enlarged to fit 403 1/2" head bolts
Performer RPM intake, unmodified
750cfm Speed Demon vacuum secondary carb
Stock HEI distributor, recurved and fitted with Accel HI-Po module and High outpu coil
Dynomax Jet-hot coated headers. 1 3/4" primaries into 3" collectors
2.5" true dual exhaust with H-pipe and Dynomax Ultra-flo welded race mufflers
Th-2004R with 2200 stall 12" lockup converter
Rebuilt 7.5" rear end with Auburn 3.73 gears and limited slip

Earlier this summer the car ran a best of 13.4@101mph using just an Edlebrock Performer intake and shifting at 5300-5500rpm. That was also with a transmission that kept slipping and shifting whenever it felt like it. LOL
Since then we installed the Performer RPM intake and picked up a TON of top end power but the trans has finally been killed by the power unfortunately. And with the camshaft in the car now, it really needs a 2800-3000 stall converter to get back some of the low end torque. With a new converter, rebuilt trans, and drag radials, this engine would propel is '81 to a high 12 second low 13 second 1/4 time. And its not very radical at all. Idles smooth and gets around 11-14mpg combined city/highway/race.
The power output is roughly (basing this on trap speed and weight of the vehicle) is around 350hp-380hp at the crank and around 440ft/lbs at the crank.

Now that I'm done trying to pursuade you away from a 350 or 403, you might want to check out this site for some info:

http://tlentz.oldsgmail.com/more_power.html

I should also mention that the above 403 will cost more than $1500. For $1500 all your going to get is a stock rebuild. Machining assembly costs will be over $500 for the block, crank, rods, and heads alone. Then factor in the parts you'll need like new pistons, cam, carb rebuild (if you don't buy new), etc and it adds up quick.
For $1500 I would focus on building a strong bottom end that you can grow into later. Then down the road as money allows, add more high performance parts to make the car faster without worrying whether or not the bottom end of the engine will be able to handle it.

For an idea on parts:

750 Speed Demon carb $400
Cam and lifters $180
Headers $100-300
w/Jet-Hot coating $375-575
Torque Tech 2.5" exhaust $300
Moroso deep pan $200
Melling pump $40
Pick-up $30
A4 intake $20-50
ARP head bolts $80
ARP main bolts $40
ARP rod bolts $50

And so on. Not all of the above parts are needed. You may not need or want to go to a different carb and could have yours rebuilt. Cam and lifters can be found cheaper but Ultradyne cams are one of THE best cams for an Olds engine.

Just some thoughts. Of course you could always go with a 425 or 455 big block. ;)

[88 Coupe]

Hi rage03usa, BigBlockOlds, hello All
Quote: ......... looking for at least 250+ hp and 300+ ft/lbs......... It can be done, but it would not be worth the time and expense.
Quote: ............is it possible to have that 307 bored to 350?........ It would require a .200+ overbore and the theoretical maximum is .030 for your 307. Quote: ..........so let me know what i should do......... Use the 307 as is and start saving more money.
In the meantime decide what you want to achieve and plan and define your goal (street, 1/4, 1/8, Autocross, LSR, etc).
Once you have a goal set, it will be easy to find how to get there.

BigBlockOlds wrote: ..........All second generation small block Olds engines............ What can you tell us about the first generation small blocks?

Regards, Norm

[BigBlockOlds]

BigBlockOlds wrote: ..........All second generation small block Olds engines............ What can you tell us about the first generation small blocks?

Regards, Norm[/quote]

Nothing. LOL

Acutally, calling the '49-'64 engines may not have been commonly called "small blocks".

I do know that the 1 gen engines included the 303, 324, 371 and 394.

But I don't know if they were ALL considered small blocks or not.

I wouldn't mind building a 394 and dropping it into a G-body Olds just for kicks. That would definitely be different. :)

I guess I should clarify that what I consider first gen and second gen are:

1949-1964 303, 324,372, and 394 are first gen

1964-1990 260, 307, 330, 350, 403, 400, 425 and 455 are second gen

[88 Coupe]

Hi BigBlockOlds, All
Quote: Acutally, calling the '49-'64 engines may not have been commonly called "small blocks" They never have been.
Like Pontiac (287" to 455"), they are not big or small blocks because they were one exterior size from 303 to the first 371. The second 371 and 394 were slightly larger,and most parts did not interchange.
The big/small block" descriptors were first used in '65 when the first 396 Chev came out.
Quote: I wouldn't mind building a 394 and dropping it into a G-body Olds just for kicks. That would definitely be different. :) Not a practical swap for a variety of reasons. Quote: I guess I should clarify that what I consider first gen and second gen are:
1949-1964 303, 324,372, and 394 are first gen

1964-1990 260, 307, 330, 350, 403, 400, 425 and 455 are second gen The first time I heard "second generation" used was when refering to the '64 El Camino.
I have never heard the word "generation" applied to Olds engines by any knowledgeable person.

Where would the '61 to '63 215 fit in?

Regards, Norm

[BigBlockOlds]

88 Coupe wrote: Hi BigBlockOlds, All
Not a practical swap for a variety of reasons.

I never said it was practical. I SAID it would be different. If all we ever did was what was practical, then there definitely wouldn't be the great diversity of cars out there that there is.

Quote: The first time I heard "second generation" used was when refering to the '64 El Camino.
I have never heard the word "generation" applied to Olds engines by any knowledgeable person.

And I've heard them described like this by a lot of knowledgeable people. What does it really matter?

Quote: Where would the '61 to '63 215 fit in?

'49-'64 1st gen. I've always seen it grouped with these engines but didn't bother to post it because I was always under the impression that the 215 was a Buick engine anyway. Isn't the 215 the same basic engine architecture that they are still using the Land Rover's today?

[73Delta88]

88 Coupe wrote: I have never heard the word "generation" applied to Olds engines by any knowledgeable person.
In other words BigBlockOlds, you are an UN-knowledgable person. :lol:
(just joking guys, don't turn this into a flame war)

[rage03usa]

allrighty... after some scrounging around... i managed to find this and bought it...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7929257188&rd=1

i did some research and found that the earlier 70s 350s are better, but for the price you cant beat it. plus my goal is a stock looking streetable import/ricer killer. (thinks back to the 1st week i had the 442, and some kids in a ford probe tried to race me... lol). Ive got until april to learn what im doing(as far as ive gotten into an engine is basic maintenance), get the engine done and back into the car, and have her running. all on about a $1500 budget. Now heres the 1st question that comes to mind. Will i be better off using the 79 intake or the 70 intake, at least until i can get an aftermarket one? also, if u notice in the pic, i will need a distributor. would i be better off using my current cpu controlled distrib. in the 442? or should i start looking for a points distrib.?
oh and last thing... if anyone wants a 307 in buffalo ny area, shoot me a price, cause im lookin to get rid of this thing... its an 81 - 85 olds 307, its missing the intake, carb, and accessories, distrib cap, and rotor. i have no backround on the engine, but i was told it runs nicely, and has about 70k miles on it. 1st bid takes it... :P
Thanks
Vince

edit: forgot to mention i will probably be working with a "engine god" on rebuilding it, but want to be prepared to do it myself if that falls thru.

[88 Coupe]

Hi BigBlockOlds, All
Quote: I never said it was practical. I SAID it would be different. A little touchy today?

Quote: I have never heard the word "generation" applied to Olds engines by any knowledgeable person. Poor choice of words on my part, and you should have taken offense at this one.
The big and small blocks are referred to as modern V8s on ROP, when differentiation is needed.

Quote: ...........the 215 was a Buick engine anyway. Isn't the 215 the same basic engine architecture that they are still using the Land Rover's today? There was a 215 Buick and a 215 Olds.
Buick added 2 cylinders to the original V6 and cast the blocks as aluminum V8s. The Buick blocks were machined by Buick and were used in Special/Skylarks and Tempest/Le Mans.
In '64'-65 they cast it in iron, stroked it to 300" and updated the aluminum heads. '65-66 bored it to 340" and used cast iron heads.

I can be corrected on the bore/stroke on the 300 and 340.

Olds did their own machining on the same blocks and used Olds pistons, heads, manifolds, etc., and added strength to withstand the use of the turbochargers used in the '62-'63 Jetfire. NA they were used in '61-63 F85/Cutlass.

The design was sold to the Rootes Group (now Rover) in the UK and the Buick version was used in several makes and models over the years.

A very updated version is used in the Rover.

Regards, Norm

[88 Coupe]

Hi rage03usa, All
Quote: .............. on about a $1500 budget............. Did the price of the 350 + shipping come out of your budget? Quote: ...... 79 intake or the 70 intake........ Leave the 79 manifold on the 307 (unless it's aluminum) it might sell better. Quote: ..... i will need a distributor........... Points or HEI will work. HEI will be easier to find, points might be cheaper.

Regards, Norm

[rage03usa]

im picking the 350 up, so i dont have to worry about shipping, but yes the 350 and trans/307/ 70 manifold came out of the $1500 budget so if i cant get anything for the 307 im looking at $1200. any recommendations and prices of parts? i havnt looked into performance internal parts yet, because i know so little, but im trying to learn.. :? i did find an engine overhaul kit for $409, so with 1200 i should be able to get some better parts i think... any and all help is appreciated.
Vince

[88 Coupe]

rage03usa wrote: .........i did find an engine overhaul kit for $409, so with 1200 i should be able to get some better parts i think........ Generic engine kits are not the highest quality and are not compatable with performance parts. Machine work can easily top $1200, you are already over you budget with a standard rebuild.
If you need the car I suggest you put it in and do what it takes to make it run now and save enough money to do it right.
I think I know someone in your area. I'll try to contact him and get back.

Regards, Norm

[OldsGuy]

Since the seller said the engine uses oil, You MIGHT be able to get by with a hone and new rings IF they are causing the oil consumption. Head gaskets, intake gasket, oil pan gasket, water neck gasket, carb/manifold gasket, rings, hone rental, ring compressor rental, torque wernch rental (unless you have these tools).....this might be an acceptable outlay of parts before you put the engine in the 442. But I agree with Norm, you will never get by a full engine rebuild with only $1200,

In retrospect, I think Norm's idea is better, drop it in and drive it, save your money for a different engine/project.