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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:45 am 
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neurotic3d wrote:
........ The entire statement is up for debate because of the qualifing statment "to create the first muscle car". Whats a fullsize Rocket V8? Do you mean an Oldsmobile V8? Did you know that the designation 'rocket' is nothing more than a marketing ploy?" ........

Read my first post again. This time, read only what is there. Not what you think is there.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ I was just going off of what a page said and then being called out for it like I made the statement at the beginning ........

Did anyone say that? Read my first post again. This time read only what is there.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ If it is such a bad statement, confront the website owners, not me ........

Would you like to guess why I asked for the link?

neurotic3d wrote:
........ All I did was copy and paste. Is that wrong? ........

Other that a little thing called "plagiarism" there is nothing wrong with that.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ Should I change my sig to 88 Coupe Knows All ........

Since it is also a false statement, I would not advise it. Might I suggest a short description of your own car, until you find something you like better?

neurotic3d wrote:
........ I might be abrasive if somebody is getting corrected by three members ........

There is no excuse for your childish behavior.

88 Coupe is the only one you have a problem with, and you created the problem yourself.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ and constantly seeing Mr. Know it All 88 Coupe do his thing he always does with everybody ........

And what is it, that he does? What do you see, that the rest of us do not?

neurotic3d wrote:
........ Saying he is pointing out other people's bs but everybody knows he is just being annoying ........

Everybody? Every one of the clowns have made the same accusation. Not one has been able to show one actual example.

If you can find one, you can post it at the following link.

http://www.oldsconnection.com/forum/vie ... php?t=2230

If you cannot, we will all understand.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ I'm not credible on Oldsmobiles. I just started to get into them ........

You have made that clear from the beginning.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ I prefer to have a 1970 Oldsmobile 442 ........

Pros and cons of owning a 442. That would be a good topic for discussion. Please start a new thread.

neurotic3d wrote:
........ You know you want to accept the fairy tale.

And you know, he knows better.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:49 am 
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neurotic3d wrote:
........ something is wrong with you ........

Nothing wrong with me.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:03 pm 
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Erroneous Restrictionism,

Thought about what you might be asking, and am guessing it is a legitimate question. I will answer it accordingly.

Erroneous Restrictionism! wrote:
........Can you explain what his sig should be saying ........

Do you mean, can I explain/discuss my own post in a rational/mature manner?

The answer is, Yes.

If you were to ask if I can explain/discuss, any/all of my posts on TOC, in a rational/mature manner.

The answer is, yes.

Erroneous Restrictionism! wrote:
........based on the info you know? ........

All my posts are based on my own knowledge/experience. Not from what I read on the internet, or car magazines.

Erroneous Restrictionism! wrote:
........It can't be false information unless you can prove it is.

Pay attention, this is important.

Demanding "Proof" of someones statement, implies that person is lying. And you can expect that person to reply in a defensive or aggressive (read stupid) manner.

Asking that person to explain the statement, works very well, if he/she knows the subject, and/or is interested in the truth.

If the that person is only here to feed his/her ego, you can expect the same kind of antisocial behavior, exhibited by you, neurotic3d, and all the clowns that preceded you.

If there is anything here that anyone is not clear about, just ask about it. That is what makes it a discussion.

Norm



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:25 pm 
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neurotic3d wrote:
I didn't expect nobody to take my post serious but I didn't expect to be said that I am eating bowls of stupid or whatever he said.


And I didn't expect you to go nuts because people pointed out you were wrong. My comment still stands.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:59 am 
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neurotic3d wrote:
There are those who claim that it was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car when it stuffed its hot new fullsize Rocket V8 into its midsize model to create the Olds 88 and Super 88 series back in 1949.


Erroneous Restrictionism! wrote:
Can you explain what his sig should be saying ........

Thought about it a little more. Since you have been behaving yourself, I will try again.

I can also read it, that you are asking me to explain my first post. Since I do not know if you were actually asking, I will only cover the first two points.

Quote:
........ It was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car ........

Not exactly.

The only part he tried to defend, was the "muscle car" part. Where did I say anything about "muscle cars"?

The term cannot be debated, because it was never defined when it was coined, and it still has not been. We will assume it was used correctly, and move on.

The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge. After the fact, it was released for production on a trial basis. If it did not sell, several people would have lost their jobs.

Call it what you want. Oldsmobile did not "create" it.

Quote:
........ when it stuffed ........

Stuffed?

"Stuffed" could be used if a large engine was installed in a small engine compartment. The 303 was actually smaller (and lighter) than the flathead 6, it replaced. "Slipped" would better fit the circumstances.

The authors use of the wrong word, shows his lack of knowledge on the subject.

Norm



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:49 am 
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Hi all,

Tried notifying his sources about their bogus information.

neurotic3d wrote:

No response. As I thought, they are more interested in selling artwork.

neurotic3d wrote:
The entire page was copied from the "Musclecarclub" site. No contact information is shown.

neurotic3d wrote:

Got the following via automated response:

Quote:
From: info@classicmusclecars.com
Subject: Thank you for your request

Dear Norm,
Thank you for your request.
A representative from ClassicMuscleCars will contact you shortly.

Thank you,
http://www.ClassicMuscleCars.com

Nothing since. They are more interested in selling cars.

Norm



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:01 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
neurotic3d wrote:
There are those who claim that it was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car when it stuffed its hot new fullsize Rocket V8 into its midsize model to create the Olds 88 and Super 88 series back in 1949.


Erroneous Restrictionism! wrote:
Can you explain what his sig should be saying ........

Thought about it a little more. Since you have been behaving yourself, I will try again.

I can also read it, that you are asking me to explain my first post. Since I do not know if you were actually asking, I will only cover the first two points.

Quote:
........ It was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car ........

Not exactly.

The only part he tried to defend, was the "muscle car" part. Where did I say anything about "muscle cars"?

The term cannot be debated, because it was never defined when it was coined, and it still has not been. We will assume it was used correctly, and move on.

The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge. After the fact, it was released for production on a trial basis. If it did not sell, several people would have lost their jobs.

Call it what you want. Oldsmobile did not "create" it.

Quote:
........ when it stuffed ........

Stuffed?

"Stuffed" could be used if a large engine was installed in a small engine compartment. The 303 was actually smaller (and lighter) than the flathead 6, it replaced. "Slipped" would better fit the circumstances.

The authors use of the wrong word, shows his lack of knowledge on the subject.

Norm


Sorry 88 Coupe, but I have to correct something you said here. According to "Setting the Pace" not only did Oldsmobile know about the 88 (they'd have to anyway, it's not like the guys on the line could just start making cars as they wanted), but GM brass did too. To quote from pages 232 & 233:

"On returning from a jaunt to Phoenix, Metzel [Engineer Harold Metzel] petitioned Chief Engineer Jack Wolfram and division head [Oldsmobile General Manager] Sherrod Skinner to put the Rocket [the new V-8 that was conceived by chief draftsman Gilbert Burrell and then developed by a team lead by Burrell as charged by Wolfram and Skinner.] into the junior platform [at that time the "76" model], bolstering his plea with some amazing data. Skinner knew a good idea when he heard it, and went to GM's top management. Though he met with some resistance, he carried the day, and a performance legend was born."

So Oldsmobile did create the Rocket 88 by putting an engine that was meant to be a 98 engine into a 76 body. It was a mid year release, not released "after the fact".

Also, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the term "Rocket Engine" was a marketing ploy. Everything is. Does anyone really believe that a gecko works for Geico? The Rocket engine was named such by Sherrod Skinner himself, to take advantage of the public's interest in rockets that the German V-2 had spurred. From that point on, Oldsmobile was indelibly linked with the term "Rocket". Prior to the introduction of that engine there was no rocket in Olds' advertising or on their cars. The Winged Spur was the Oldsmobile logo. The Ringed Globe replaced the Winged Spur and then was replaced itself by the Rocket.

Those of you who would like to learn the truth about the history of Oldsmobile could not do better than getting and reading a copy of "Setting the Pace".



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:30 pm 
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starfire wrote:
........ Sorry 88 Coupe, but I have to correct something you said here ........

I would be less confusing if you posted the actual quote instead of an apology.

starfire wrote:
........ it's not like the guys on the line could just start making cars as they wanted ........

No one said they could.


So everyone is on the same page, here is the original statement:

neurotic3d's original sig wrote:
There are those who claim that it was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car when it stuffed its hot new fullsize Rocket V8 into its midsize model to create the 88 and Super 88 series back in 1949 ........

And here is (I assume) the statement you responded to.

88 Coupe wrote:
........ The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge. After the fact, it was released for production on a trial basis. If it did not sell, several people would have lost their jobs.

Call it what you want. Oldsmobile did not "create" it ........


starfire wrote:
........ According to "Setting the Pace" ........

Excellent resource. But like any other source, it is only accurate if the quote fits the context of the discussion.

starfire wrote:
........ not only did Oldsmobile know about the 88 ........

Did they (management) find out about it before, or after, the first one was built? Who built the first one?

starfire wrote:
........ "On returning from a jaunt to Phoenix ........

The GM proving ground at Mesa AZ? Why was he there? What did he learn?

starfire wrote:
........ Though he met with some resistance, he carried the day ........

Resistance, in what form? Did he cite the sales success of the '36 Buick Century as a selling point?

starfire wrote:
........ So Oldsmobile did create the Rocket 88 by ........

Not exactly.

“88” was the car model. “Rocket” was the engine.

Who created the 88 will be addressed by your answers to the above questions.

starfire wrote:
........ a 98 engine into a 76 body .........

OP was the only one that said different.

starfire wrote:
........ It was a mid year release ........

That was because the 88 wasn't planned. If it had been, a manual trans would have been offered.

At that time, automatics were only beginning to become popular in luxury cars such as the 98, but not at lower levels. AT vs MT was not the same as it was 20 years later. MT was still common, AT was for ladies, and old people.

In terms of potential sales, the lack of a MT, put the new 88 at an extreme disadvantage.

Does the book offer any insight into this area?

starfire wrote:
........ not released "after the fact" ........

After which fact?

starfire wrote:
........ "Setting the Pace"

I think all Olds enthusiasts should read it.

Norm



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:41 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
starfire wrote:
........ Sorry 88 Coupe, but I have to correct something you said here ........

I would be less confusing if you posted the actual quote instead of an apology.

starfire wrote:
........ it's not like the guys on the line could just start making cars as they wanted ........

No one said they could.

Well you said: "The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge." Well, if management had no knowledge of it (and therefore could not have ordered 88's built), and the line workers didn't build them on their own, who did? Keebler elves?

So everyone is on the same page, here is the original statement:

neurotic3d's original sig wrote:
There are those who claim that it was Oldsmobile that created the first muscle car when it stuffed its hot new fullsize Rocket V8 into its midsize model to create the 88 and Super 88 series back in 1949 ........

And here is (I assume) the statement you responded to.

88 Coupe wrote:
........ The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge. After the fact, it was released for production on a trial basis. If it did not sell, several people would have lost their jobs.

Call it what you want. Oldsmobile did not "create" it ........


starfire wrote:
........ According to "Setting the Pace" ........

Excellent resource. But like any other source, it is only accurate if the quote fits the context of the discussion.

It does fit the context of the discussion. You stated that "The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge."

starfire wrote:
........ not only did Oldsmobile know about the 88 ........

Did they (management) find out about it before, or after, the first one was built? Who built the first one?

Management (Skinner) was one of the driving forces behind the project. Sorry, I don't have the names of the line workers who built the first "88".

starfire wrote:
........ "On returning from a jaunt to Phoenix ........

The GM proving ground at Mesa AZ? Why was he there? What did he learn?

These questions do not pertain to this discussion. Why was he in AZ? He was an engineer. They frequently went to AZ or Milford to test cars. Part of their jobs. As far as I know, the trip to AZ had nothing to do directly with the development of the 88. It was just on the trip back where he got the idea.

starfire wrote:
........ Though he met with some resistance, he carried the day ........

Resistance, in what form? Did he cite the sales success of the '36 Buick Century as a selling point?

Why does any of this matter? Some of the resistance was the fact that Cadillac was objecting to Oldsmobile having a V-8 engine.


starfire wrote:
........ So Oldsmobile did create the Rocket 88 by ........

Not exactly.

What do you mean by "Not exactly". If by that you mean that Harold Metzel created the Rocket 88, you would probably be correct, but, Metzel worked for Oldsmobile and Olds owned any intellectual property.

“88” was the car model. “Rocket” was the engine.

Put the two together and you get "Rocket 88". An advertising slogan. BTW, according to STP, many people at Olds (sorry, it doesn't list them by name) wanted to call the new engine the "Kettering Engine". This was not allowed as GM had a rule against naming products after living persons.

Who created the 88 will be addressed by your answers to the above questions.

starfire wrote:
........ a 98 engine into a 76 body .........

OP was the only one that said different.

starfire wrote:
........ It was a mid year release ........

That was because the 88 wasn't planned. If it had been, a manual trans would have been offered.

Where's your documentation for this?

At that time, automatics were only beginning to become popular in luxury cars such as the 98, but not at lower levels. AT vs MT was not the same as it was 20 years later. MT was still common, AT was for ladies, and old people.

In 1949 the 76 series had a MT as standard equipment, but both the 88 and the 98 had Hydromatic as standard. In 1948 and in 1950 all Oldsmobiles had a MT as standard equipment. I do not have any information as to why the 49 offerings were different.

In terms of potential sales, the lack of a MT, put the new 88 at an extreme disadvantage.

Where is YOUR source for this statement?

Hmm, even though the 88 was a mid year car it still sold 100,274 units out of a total of close to 294,000 Oldsmobiles built in 1949. Olds production for 1949 was a 64% gain over the 1948 production. Doesn't sound to me like the lack of a MT hurt sales too much.

Does the book offer any insight into this area?

No, other than the fact that GM was trying to sell Hydramatic transmissions.

starfire wrote:
........ not released "after the fact" ........

After which fact?

I don't know. You're the one who said it: "The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge. After the fact, it was released for production on a trial basis."

starfire wrote:
........ "Setting the Pace"

I think all Olds enthusiasts should read it.

I will stick with my original statement.

Norm



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:58 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
........ It would be less confusing if you posted the actual quote instead of an apology ........

You added more confusion. The goal is to eliminate it, in order to promote accurate communication. This is done by deleting the parts one is not responding to, and retaining only those parts that are relevant to the actual post, by using using the ["quote"] and ["/quote"] codes.

Maybe this link will help. If I must, I will work with whatever you choose to post. In this case, it took even longer for me to recode it.


Back on topic.

Here is your quote again. I simplified it by removing the irrelevant parts.

Setting the Pace wrote:
........ On returning from a jaunt to Phoenix, ........ Engineer ........ petitioned Chief Engineer ........ and division head ........ to put the Rocket ........ into the junior platform ........ bolstering his plea with some amazing data ........ and went to GM's top management. Though he met with some resistance, he carried the day ........

Other than the first paragraph, there is nothing in your original post that was not already common knowledge.

starfire wrote:
........ it's not like the guys on the line could just start making cars as they wanted ........
88 Coupe wrote:
No one said they could.

........ Well you said: "The "88" modification was done without management (and therefore) Oldsmobile's knowledge."

I did not say anything about guys or lines.

Read what is there, not what you think is there.

Quote:
........ who did? Keebler elves? ........

What are Keebler elves? What do they have to do with this topic?

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
........ Excellent resource. But like any other source, it is only accurate if the quote fits the context of the discussion ........

It does fit the context of the discussion ........

I did not say it did, or did not.

Read what is there, not what you think is there.

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
........ Did they (management) find out about it before, or after, the first one was built? ........

Management (Skinner) was one of the driving forces behind the project ........

Not what I asked.

Read what is there, not what you think is there.

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
........ Who built the first one? ........

........ I don't have the names of the line workers who built the first "88" ........

I did not ask for names of anyone.

Read what is there, not what you think is there.

starfire wrote:
........ These questions do not pertain to this discussion .........

They address the statements you quoted from your book. Your inability to answer them, shows:
    1. How much of the story is missing.
    2. You lack the background knowledge you need to fill in the blanks.
starfire wrote:
........ As far as I know, the trip to AZ had nothing to do directly with the development of the 88. It was just on the trip back where he got the idea ........

It does not sound like you got this from your book.

starfire wrote:
........ Though he met with some resistance, he carried the day ........

88 Coupe wrote:
Resistance, in what form? Did he cite the sales success of the '36 Buick Century as a selling point?

........ Some of the resistance was the fact that Cadillac was objecting to Oldsmobile having a V-8 engine .........

Not possible. The 303 was a V8. It was in the 98s that were already on the streets.

starfire wrote:
........ So Oldsmobile did create the Rocket 88 by ........

88 Coupe wrote:
Not exactly.

“88” was the car model. “Rocket” was the engine ........

........ What do you mean by "Not exactly" ........

Exactly what I said.

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
........ “88” was the car model. “Rocket” was the engine ........

........ Put the two together and you get "Rocket 88" ........

Madison avenue mentality would be a different topic. If you would like to discuss it, start another thread.

starfire wrote:
........ according to STP, many people at Olds (sorry, it doesn't list them by name) wanted to call the new engine the "Kettering Engine". This was not allowed as GM had a rule against naming products after living persons.

More common knowledge that has nothing to do with this discussion?

starfire wrote:
........ Where's your documentation for this? ........

We are talking about your documentation, not mine.

starfire wrote:
........ In 1949 the 76 series had a MT as standard equipment, but both the 88 and the 98 had Hydromatic as standard ........

The correct spelling (and pronunciation) is Hydramatic, with an A. “Hydro” was/is the slang version, first used in the late fifties.

Manual trans 88 or 98 was not available in '49. It was, however, standard in the '49 Cad and Buick.

starfire wrote:
........ In 1948 and in 1950 all Oldsmobiles had a MT as standard equipment ........

More common knowledge.

starfire wrote:
........ I do not have any information as to why the 49 offerings were different. .........

The reason was well known, at the time. I'm surprised it was not included in your book.

88 Coupe wrote:
starfire wrote:
........ It was a mid year release ........

That was because the 88 wasn't planned. If it had been, a manual trans would have been offered ........

Didn't your book give a reason why the '49 Olds 88 and 98 were the only production cars, in the world, that did not did not have MT as standard equipment?

starfire wrote:
........ I do not have any information as to why the 49 offerings were different ........

'48 and earlier trans were not capable of handling the 303. They could only use what they had.

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
In terms of potential sales, the lack of a MT, put the new 88 at an extreme disadvantage.

........ Where is YOUR source for this statement? ........

Again, we are discussing your source, not mine.

starfire wrote:
........ Doesn't sound to me like the lack of a MT hurt sales too much ........

I did not say it did.

Read what is there, not what you think is there.

starfire wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
Does the book offer any insight into this area? ........

........ No, other than the fact that GM was trying to sell Hydramatic transmissions ........

Common knowledge. How is it relevant.

starfire wrote:
........ not released "after the fact" ........
88 Coupe wrote:
........After which fact? ........

........ I don't know ........

You do not know, because you did not read my statement before posting your correction.

Have you wondered why I ask questions before I commit myself to a discussion?

To find out if the poster knows something I do not. If so, I will learn everything I can, by asking more questions. If not, a discussion will start, and everyone will be able to learn from it.

Either way, I will challenge anything I do not understand.

starfire wrote:
........ I will stick with my original statement ........

Like all of us, you have the right to be wrong.

Norm



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