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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:32 am 
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88 Coupe wrote:
And improve fuel mileage? What does it do if there is no water?

Thats a good question... Likely where they are getting the loss of fuel economy in thier tests. Could it possibly be that if a person were to add a mixture of water and acetone, it would in theory, be like water injection?

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........ why not use gasoline antifreeze, if water emulsion is the goal? ........

Acetone is cheaper?

Good answer!

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........ There is also debate as to whether this is desired or not - in a diesel injection system ........

Debate?

Maybe debate is the wrong word. You definately dont want to introduce water into a diesel engine. But why would people still be adding it to thier fuel systems with claimed success, and not huge repair bills? I just want to know where all this positive "placebo effect" is really coming from.

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........ you want to Demulsify water into a collection bowl, so the pump never sees any water at all ........

Sounds like what one would find in any diesel fuel system.

Did I imply that some diesel systems did not?

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........ The average person will not have a water extraction bowl to bleed water from the fuel system in a gasoline application ........

The average person does not have water in the tank.

And for people that do, gasline antifreeze is available. I suppose Californians really dont have to worry so much about thier fuel lines freezing. ;-) I can definitely see application in gas for the water emulsion properties of acetone alone.

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........ Acetone sounds like it might do the job in a pinch.

If there is enough water to cause a problem, how much acetone should be used?
[/quote]

PESWiki wrote:
...Acetone will emulsify or suspend water in diesel or gasoline, unless the amount of water is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of acetone...


Best I can do for now...



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:05 am 
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88delta88 wrote:
........ Likely where they are getting the loss of fuel economy in their tests ........

And when the acetone/water mix is gone, it goes back up to normal. Why was the water not a problem until the acetone was added?

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........ Could it possibly be that if a person were to add a mixture of water and acetone, it would in theory, be like water injection?

More like an alcohol and water mix than straight water. Any of the three would decrease both power and mileage.

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........ But why would people still be adding it to their fuel systems with claimed success, and not huge repair bills? ........

The "success" is from the acetone. The water is a red herring.

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........ I just want to know where all this positive "placebo effect" is really coming from ........

There are probably as many reasons as there are positive reports.

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........ Did I imply that some diesel systems did not? ........

Did I imply that you did?

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........ And for people that do, gasoline antifreeze is available ........

Is it that common, up there, to have water in a gas tank?

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........ I suppose Californians really don't have to worry so much about their fuel lines freezing ........

Not in the LA Basin anyway. At what temp does gasoline freeze?

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........ I can definitely see application in gas for the water emulsion properties of acetone alone ........

For increased mileage?

PESWiki wrote:
...Acetone will emulsify or suspend water in diesel or gasoline, unless the amount of water is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of acetone...

So, for a gallon of water you would add a gallon of acetone?

Norm



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:15 am 
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88 Coupe wrote:
88delta88 wrote:
PESWiki wrote:
...Acetone will emulsify or suspend water in diesel or gasoline, unless the amount of water is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of acetone...

So, for a gallon of water you would add a gallon of acetone?

Norm


That's what it sounds like, and this is how much they recommend adding to the tank:

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# Add to fuel in the ratio of 1 - 3.5 oz per 10 gallons (8 - 27 ml per 10 liters) for gasoline
# Add to fuel in the ratio of 0.5 - 2 oz per 10 gallons (4 - 16 ml per 10 liters) for diesel


Quote:
"If there is water (even small amounts from condensation) in the fuel and the engine is fuel injected, especially diesel engines, the acetone will form an emulsion with the water and corrode injector pump and damage injector tips, according to GM and various fuel injector manufacturers. Check with your vehicle manufacturer before using."


All from the peswiki site.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:48 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
Why was the water not a problem until the acetone was added?

Water is a problem period. I thought acetone might be a good way to get it out of a gasoline system, but would cause more of a problem by emulsifying the water in a diesel system.

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........ Could it possibly be that if a person were to add a mixture of water and acetone, it would in theory, be like water injection?

More like an alcohol and water mix than straight water. Any of the three would decrease both power and mileage.

Maybe its a good candidate for a new topic, but it applies here: why do hot rodders use water injection?

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........ But why would people still be adding it to their fuel systems with claimed success, and not huge repair bills? ........

The "success" is from the acetone. The water is a red herring.

So, were they succeeding, or was the acetone a red herring also?

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........ Did I imply that some diesel systems did not? ........

Did I imply that you did?

I got the feeling you did, now I get the feeling you didnt...

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Is it that common, up there, to have water in a gas tank?

It gets down to -35 celcius here, and if you've got any moisture, it could mean you'll be walking to the bus stop. Since it happened to me in grade 11, I've always kept a couple bottles of gasline antifreeze, or 99% isopropyl sitting around. Here at our shop, we've got the same habits. So, although its is not common to have water in the gas tank, it happens more often than some might think. How much water is another story altogether.

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...At what temp does gasoline freeze?

COLD. Since additives vary, the freezing point does also. I cannot locate anyone, or any source that seems to have any reasoning behind thier claimed freezing point.

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........ I can definitely see application in gas for the water emulsion properties of acetone alone ........

For increased mileage?

I have not seen much more evidence of milage increases than testimony, and a couple of lame-ass explainations as to why it works or doesnt.

Quote:
PESWiki wrote:
...Acetone will emulsify or suspend water in diesel or gasoline, unless the amount of water is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of acetone...

So, for a gallon of water you would add a gallon of acetone?

Let me start by saying if you've got a gallon of water in your system, you've got bigger problems... ;-) But, for argument-sake, sure. You need just as much acetone to hold all that water from dropping out of emulsion.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:39 pm 
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Thanks for the insight.

Quote:
........ why do hot rodders use water injection? ........

Do they?

Every molecule of water in a combustion chamber displaces a molecule of gasoline. Does that tell you anything

Like an EGR system, its only use is to lower combustion temps, in order to control detonation. A "real" gearhead will choose a compression/cam combination to match the fuel he/she intends to use. If one were forced to use a lower grade of fuel, a degree or two less distributor advance would do the same.

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........ So, were they succeeding, or was the acetone a red herring also? ........

A "Red Herring" is used to divert the readers attention from any inconsistencies in the authors presentation. In this case, acetone is the presentation, and its water solubility is one of the "Red Herrings".

Norm



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:04 pm 
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well after a tank of gas not much difference since putting in the new EGR valve but it was still a worth-while endeavor since the engine idles better doesn't chug either while idling or while under very low load. I put some full fuel system cleaners through, to see how well it'll do then to see if I may need a new fuel injector or whatever else (of course getting it checked by a pro) Blasted cold here in Mississauga, Ontario (Canada), starts are a pain in the butt, thank god for block heaters, and yes I realize a car can use up to 40% more fuel in the winter, I've already taken that into consideration.


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