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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:42 am 
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my staatment started from "agreed, they also make some of the springs in varible rate now"


Yes, it did. And whether that applied to what the OP was originally after, is still in question.

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thats when the war path started on me.


No war path. Read what's there, not what isn't. Calling a spade, a spade is not a war path. Now if I started making fun of your mother...

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Since then ive posted alot more info to elaborate so what are you talking about andrew?


The only part of the two links you posted, that pertains to the performance side of this, which is the debate, has little credibility because of its "we are better than everyone else" sales approach I mentioned earlier. Chassis tuners are not idiots, they get paid a lot of money to tune cars. There is a reason that they don't use variable rate springs, and it isn't because of incompetence. Their sales pitch ruins whatever credibility that information had, regardless if it is true or not.

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Then you directly quoted norm and asked questions about his statements which implies that your asking him to answer what he said in ther thread.


Its a discussion. If someone beat him to it, he would have either agreed or offered a rebuttal. It's what mature people do.

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And since when does norm need time to compose a reply?


Since he doesn't talk out his azz and makes sure he relays accurate and truthful information- And since when did you care?

Quote:
he's never had a problem quoting and all the other crap he does on here so why this one?


Why does it matter? At least his posts are easy to interpret.

Quote:
So for you to talk about talk about me "expanding" on this thread is completley stupid


Grow up. Either defend your position, or quit posting. We have been over this. (It would be regarding "BS replies") I believe the saying is "Put up or shut up".

Quote:
because i actually posted info not my opinion.


If you had, would we still be talking?



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:53 am 
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91parkave wrote:
LOL yea no need to explain or quote every sentence. I have just one thing to ask Norm, so if varible rate springs arent a performance-oriented spring..... THEN WHY DID THE OP's PERFORMANCE SUSPENSION KIT COME WITH THEM??


Eibach Pro Kit Description wrote:
When you're thinking about suspension upgrades and vehicle lowering, it's easy to get overwhelmed. After all, how do you put together parts from various manufacturers and still end up with a drivable car? The answer is an Eibach Pro Kit. The Eibach Pro Kit is a complete set of springs engineered for each individual application. Using an Eibach Pro Kit, you get a matched set of progressive lowering springs that take your car down just the right amount--not slammed, but not on stilts anymore either. Each Eibach Pro Kit is manufactured with driving comfort in mind, too. What you end up with after installation of an Eibach Pro Kit is a lowered vehicle that still rides well on the street, but handles better in corners as well. Designed by engineers with enthusiast input, the Eibach Pro Kit reduces squat and dive under acceleration and braking while lowering the vehicle's center of gravity. You get great handling and a great ride all in one box with the Eibach Pro Kit. Pick up an Eibach Pro Kit for your ride today. Regardless of what you drive, old or new, import or domestic, an Eibach Pro Kit is probably available for your car. And when you buy from us, you're assured of the best prices and fast shipping for your Eibach Pro Kit.


Lets note that Eibach never calls the spring a "performance spring". How much of this improved handling is attributed, not to the progressive rate, but to the fact the spring is stiffer, and shorter than stock? My guess is that they are variable rate to improve ride quality, but if they were not variable rate, I would believe they would perform even better.

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oh yea, and since i have no knowledgde on this subject i would like to be enlightened by you so if you would ever so kindly, explain why performance suspension kits in general utilize varible rate springs.


See above.



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:44 am 
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Eibach Pro Kit Description wrote:
When you're thinking about suspension upgrades and vehicle lowering, it's easy to get overwhelmed. After all, how do you put together parts from various manufacturers and still end up with a drivable car? The answer is an Eibach Pro Kit. The Eibach Pro Kit is a complete set of springs engineered for each individual application. Using an Eibach Pro Kit, you get a matched set of progressive lowering springs that take your car down just the right amount--not slammed, but not on stilts anymore either. Each Eibach Pro Kit is manufactured with driving comfort in mind, too. What you end up with after installation of an Eibach Pro Kit is a lowered vehicle that still rides well on the street, but handles better in corners as well. Designed by engineers with enthusiast input, the Eibach Pro Kit reduces squat and dive under acceleration and braking while lowering the vehicle's center of gravity. You get great handling and a great ride all in one box with the Eibach Pro Kit. Pick up an Eibach Pro Kit for your ride today. Regardless of what you drive, old or new, import or domestic, an Eibach Pro Kit is probably available for your car. And when you buy from us, you're assured of the best prices and fast shipping for your Eibach Pro Kit.


thanks andrew cause that runs right along with what i said in the first place, also note the key word progressive lowering spring, which is a varible or progressive rate spring in simple terms. now read in bold and re-read everything i posted. Should i break that down even more or do you get the point now. so now i defended my post the info i offered isnt questionable especially now thanks to andrew anything else you have to contribute?



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm 
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thanks andrew cause that runs right along with what i said in the first place,


It does? Last I knew you were saying that variable rate springs performed better than non-variable, and to back it up, you told us how well they work for extra load carrying capacity. I don't know about you, but I don't see any pickup trucks or Semi-tractors that handle as well as a sports car, and their "selling point" is an upgrade in load carrying capacity. So how does additional cargo weight capacity translate into better handling?

Quote:
also note the key word progressive lowering spring, which is a varible or progressive rate spring in simple terms.


We already know that Sean0000 chose the Eibach Pro Kit. We also know that it is a variable rate kit. This is nothing new. Whats your point?

Quote:
now read in bold and re-read everything i posted.

You are still missing the entire point.

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Should i break that down even more or do you get the point now. so now i defended my post the info i offered isnt questionable especially now thanks to andrew anything else you have to contribute?


You are still missing the entire point, and you haven't defended anything.

Your Welcome.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:21 pm 
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So andrew anser one logical question.....Why are there performance spring/suspension kits that INCLUDE varible rate springs? its been how many days now and theres been no proof on the conclusion clown came to about varible rate springs. That thread is still out of clowns mouth with no refrences to actual proof therfore its invalid to this subjuct.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:31 pm 
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91buickman wrote:
So andrew anser one logical question.....Why are there performance spring/suspension kits that INCLUDE varible rate springs? ........

He already answered it.

Here it is again:

andrewk wrote:
........ Lets note that Eibach never calls the spring a "performance spring" .........

Norm



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:43 pm 
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And I also answered it.

Here it is again:

88 Coupe wrote:
2. Variable rate springs are designed for a completely different purpose.

91buickman wrote:
........ Besides whats already been stated, what other purpose might that be? ........

There is only one purpose for the springs you brought up. Extra load carrying capacity.


How much more "proof" could you possibly need?

Norm



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:01 pm 
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91buickman wrote:
........ Why are there performance spring/suspension kits that include varible rate springs? ........

OP asked about springs, not about suspension kits.

If you would like to discuss A/G body suspension modifications, you are welcome to start a new thread on that topic.

Norm



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:49 pm 
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91parkave wrote:
So andrew anser one logical question.....Why are there performance spring/suspension kits that INCLUDE varible rate springs?


Been there, answered that. Did you miss it? Norm already reposted it, so I won't bother.

91parkave wrote:
its been how many days now and theres been no proof on the conclusion Norm came to about varible rate springs.


Have you been reading along at all? It has been covered multiple times.


91parkave wrote:
That thread is still out of Norm's mouth with no refrences to actual proof therfore its invalid to this subjuct.


The actual proof is in the Moog quote from Brando, and your feretti motors article.

Both articles make the assertion that variable rate springs are used for additional load carrying capacity. Neither of them makes an assertion about the performance of the spring versus a linear one.

Your claim, contrary to what you have posted, is that you will get better performance from a variable rate spring versus a linear rate spring. To back this up, you use a sales pitch description of a spring kit that I posted.

I have asked for clarification more than once, but it seems that you are blind to that. If you can't clarify it, just say so, and I'll move on.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:31 pm 
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andrewk wrote:
Been there, answered that. Did you miss it? Norm already reposted it, so I won't bother.


Andrew you havent posted a answer youve made guesses based on information posted
andrewk wrote:

Have you been reading along at all? It has been covered multiple times.


I have been reading very carefully, Clown posted his opinion of varible rate springs do nothing for performance, again i say and posted they do increase performance....But my posts clearly state what they do---increase load capacity...ok
Decrease sway in corners....ok
Decrease brake squat....ok
increase stability....ok

So if all that dosent mean more performance.....we wont see eye to eye

andrewk wrote:

The actual proof is in the Moog quote from Brando, and your feretti motors article.

Both articles make the assertion that variable rate springs are used for additional load carrying capacity. Neither of them makes an assertion about the performance of the spring versus a linear one.

Your claim, contrary to what you have posted, is that you will get better performance from a variable rate spring versus a linear rate spring. To back this up, you use a sales pitch description of a spring kit that I posted.

I have asked for clarification more than once, but it seems that you are blind to that. If you can't clarify it, just say so, and I'll move on.


Clarifaction is in the writing i posted, if all you could get out one article was the sales pitch then please why are you wasting these peoples time with your posts? They all CLearly state though what advangtages are to be had using the varible rate spring, semi trucks and such are another ball game, and by using that analogy makes it completley irrelevant. 88 coupe cleary stated "varible rate springs "he would EXPECT to do the opposite of perofrmance" i stated that they would, my articles also Clealry indicate a gain to be had by using varible rate. But yet im missing the point? well if i am wrong then please QUOTE the section of the pointless thread posted so i can see the error of my ways.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:12 am 
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Sigh...

sean0000 wrote:
THe thing is I want them to still give that comfortable cruising ride, but with a touch more performance than stock.


He did not ask for additional load carrying capacity, he asked for more perfomance. Performance=handling

You reply-

91parkave wrote:
agreed. also some of the springs are made in varible rate now so also check for that to.


So, one can infer, from this post, that you are saying that variable rate springs can offer him this increase in performance that he was looking for.

And you emphasize your point by telling us that they are great for increased load carrying capacity, which they are, but you have also made the assertion that they will increase performance, which, as more than one person has said, they will not.

Quote:
Decrease sway in corners....ok
Decrease brake squat....ok
increase stability....ok


Where did you say this?

Quote:
if all you could get out one article was the sales pitch then please why are you wasting these peoples time with your posts? They all CLearly state though what advangtages are to be had using the varible rate spring,


I said the information was tainted by the sales pitch, which damages its credibility.

Quote:
my articles also Clealry indicate a gain to be had by using varible rate.


You didn't write them. But then, whatever google brings up must be the truth, right?

Quote:
Andrew you havent posted a answer youve made guesses based on information posted


I admitted in the beginning that I don't have experience first hand, but that I am familiar (Very familiar actually) with the theories involved in their operation. But since you want to question me on my answers, what experience do you have with suspension, specifically linear and variable rate springs?

All I see in this thread is you going off the hammer, again, while others are trying to actually have a conversation.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:23 am 
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Sorry refer to the other spring topic we posted in, apologize for that, but you can see here in the article i posted.


Some more info

Quote:
Ferreti Motors also has an article:

Variable Rate Coil Springs are higher quality replacements for original equipment coil springs. The unique feature of variable rate coil springs is the increasing rate of support provided as the load increases. This improved type of winding gives the springs a variable rate of resistance and allows additional load capacity. VRC springs give a more comfortable stable ride. They assist in reducing sag, side sway, road wander and also help compensate for unequal weight distribution in your car. The difference is really noticeable when your car is heavily loaded or if you are towing. Regular coil springs will handle about 600 pounds. Our variable rate coil spring design, available for most vehicles equipped with coil springs, allows a typical car to take about 1,100 pounds (500 pounds more).


Now you see the comparioson and my point? BTW google is what you use for your answers to andrew but guess it must be truth also.....I could tell you how long ive been installing lowering kits, struts and all that crap but then someone would ask me to prove it and i really am not going to go there so leave it or love it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:31 am 
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91parkave wrote:
Sorry refer to the other spring topic we posted in, apologize for that, but you can see here in the article i posted.


Some more info

Quote:
Ferreti Motors also has an article:

Variable Rate Coil Springs are higher quality replacements for original equipment coil springs. The unique feature of variable rate coil springs is the increasing rate of support provided as the load increases. This improved type of winding gives the springs a variable rate of resistance and allows additional load capacity. VRC springs give a more comfortable stable ride. They assist in reducing sag, side sway, road wander and also help compensate for unequal weight distribution in your car. The difference is really noticeable when your car is heavily loaded or if you are towing. Regular coil springs will handle about 600 pounds. Our variable rate coil spring design, available for most vehicles equipped with coil springs, allows a typical car to take about 1,100 pounds (500 pounds more).


Thanks.


Quote:
Now you see the comparioson and my point?


What I read is that it will offer a better ride, not make the car handle better- Sag, road wander, and side sway are all driveablility issues, not performance handling issues- It would help retain stock handling, but how would this increase performance?


Quote:
BTW google is what you use for your answers to andrew but guess it must be truth also


I was being subtle- I meant that there is a lot of misinformation on the 'net. I use google to find an easily accessible article that emphasizes my point, which I know to be true. If I questioned the information contained in the article, I wouldn't post it.

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.....I could tell you how long ive been installing lowering kits, struts and all that crap but then someone would ask me to prove it and i really am not going to go there so leave it or love it.


Right now, I'll still "leave it".



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:45 am 
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Your continued use of underlining and bold fonts, only make your posts more confusing.

91buickman wrote:
........ Clealry indicate a gain to be had by using varible rate .........

Yes. Overload springs would cause an overloaded vehicle to handle better. No one has disputed that.

91buickman wrote:
........ But yet im missing the point? ........

Yes. You went off topic with your first post, and no one followed.

Until you figure that out, you will continue to "miss the point".

Norm



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:57 am 
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Clown, ok....Varible rate springs arent overloaded springs for a overloaded vehicle. They offer a higher spring rate (firmness) as more suspension travel occurs, which is why its more ideal than a linear rate spring for most practical applications, Like i posted already there an upgrade bacuse the give th best of both worlds between having a heavier rate linear spring and having a "factory" spring because it can offer both. By performance i mean better than factory or upgrade as i stated before, in which word for word, the op wanted...options, advise. So please once agian how am i missing the point? so ask you again how do they not offer better performance as compared to your statements?



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