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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Yea...that's true...but it's called Analog or Digital.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:44 pm 
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Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
88 Coupe wrote:
Quote:
........ one electric sender oil pressure, and one electric sender coolant temp ........

I prefer mechanical for oil and temp, electric for fuel level and pressure. Haven't decided about amp/volt meters yet.

lol mechanical amp/voltmeter lol ........

Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
andrewk wrote:
88Coupe wrote:
Haven't decided about amp/volt meters yet.

Could you explain the difference between a mechanical ammeter and an electric one?

the mechanical requires that you move the needle...lol

Sorry, I thought James covered it.

andrewk wrote:
........ He must have been joking.

To my knowledge, transportation of electrons between a sending unit/sensor and a gauge, must be must be done via a wire.

The part saying I haven't decided between the two, was the setup. The impossibility of doing it mechanically, was the punchline.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:01 am 
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well time for an update.... :D
Al now owns TWO W's he just scored his brothers 93 LQ1 B4U GP
if you don’t know the history, Joe needed a car and Al and I went with him to like 10 dealers before we found the GP, drove great but I found a major oil leak at the rear cam carrier gasket which helped us get it for 2600$ vs the 3500$ asking price, we fixed the carrier gasket in a day while at the same time doing the T belt and oil pump drive o ring (without removing the cyl head, i think i put that in a post somewhere)
at which point a couple weeks later he put ATF in the master cylinder (he had checked the trans level with the dipstick, and dipshit added to the master lol) so it has all new brakes, calipers, hoses, lines, master cylinder etc.

well within the last month after a heavy rainstorm, guess who hydro locked his LQ1...yup Joe when Al and I went to look at it we pulled the sopping wet filter out and looked at the TB at which point i opened the Throttle blade and about 3 cups of water poured out :rolleyes: the oil dipstick showed about a quart or so of over filled (probably from water...)
needless to say the engine is fucked, we cant even turn the crank with a 4 ft breaker bar :eek: so I’m willing to bet that the connecting rods look more like L's than 1's
The Water line was up to the HEADLIGHTS!!!!! Interior was soaked yada yada yada
so after Joe got cut a check for 2200$ (after -400 for the buyback) we helped find him an 03 Bonneville SSEi Fully loaded!!!! L67 with 40K on the clock for 18k out the door.

So Now Al has the GP with a salvage title (no big deal it'll be a winter driver heheh) and we now have a home for the worked over 3100 that will be coming out of the 442, so we have to swap the 94 Cutty 3100 engine/harness/PCM to the 93 GP

and now to the update on the 442.... :thumb:
we have completed the 3 piece rear firewall top cover,
it is a multi layer setup consisting of the fabric top spray adhered to the 1/8th inch thick aluminum sheet, 3/16ths fiberboard underneath, with 1/64 inch thick aluminum sheet under that and on the inside of the engine compartment is the CoolTec thermal mat glued to it. Around the perimeter of it is 3/8ths inch aluminum C channel which is drilled and riveted around the perimeter to hold it all together, these things are f#%king strong!!!!
the main center panel was put in front of my 30K BTU propane torpedo heater (engine side towards heater) and after 30 minutes the fabric side was just a few degree's warmer! Success!!!!!
We can now be assured that with the AC on full blast the interior can get cooler than 80* on a hot day with both engines running!!!! WOOT! (man was it a hot car at UMM3 lol)
unfortunately there is really no way to keep the rollcage from transferring some heat to the interior, but hey, it's a twin engine car...compromises’ must be made, comfort loosing out of course to function :rofl:

the panels fully comply with NHRA/IHRA specs for engine firewall construction we still have to work on the latch/holdowns for the main access door/center panel
this is the last firewall we will be building, this was very labor intensive to have them turn out this perfect
check em out, the front wall (steel) just needs a bit more grinding and fabric covered over it, then onto the center console/main electrical center
Image
dont mind the bag over the K&N, just to keep it clean and the blue masking tape is there to keep the fabric taut as the spray adhesive cures
Image
Image

gotta get a 36 inch neon for the rear compartment, we broke the other one, this light needs to go in front of the engine/intake to reflect off of the mylar of the cooltec thermal/noise barrier
these panels are very labor intensive (i have to emphasize that) but look F'n sweet! well worth the time... the panels slide into a 1/2 inch aluminum C channel screwed and sealed to the upper 2x2x1/4 cross tube above the strut buckets and will be bolted down in the front though we are considering quick release Dzus fasteners for the middle panel since it will be the cover removed most often for maintenance.

and now to the front 3800 buildup...
L67 top end on an L36 shortblock with a crapload of 3800 oiling and cooling improvements are the current plan for cheap power for the front...
just grabed a cheap 96 LIM and VC's from the Jyard the other day, got em for 30$ with a couple other small items for the 442 exterior
the blower needs a coupler and is a warrantied blower from a 2000 GTP with ~ 60-80K on it (box has Sullivan Pontiac- a local dealer on it) i scored it for 50$
and eric's l67 TB and MAF from his 98 Riviera since the tune for his N* and LQ4 is so good (he dont need it, we do lol)

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the sick part is Al wants to throw the turbo on feeding the blower, and have me make a custom M90 manifold for my SI/SII project, and have the turbo that is going on the LN3 onto that
i could see doing that on the rear engine eventually since blowers have better low rpm Tq but a stall can help us there off the line as well as some serious rear suspension work, a blower would prob help more in the rear, the front already breaks em loose, i'm hoping the weight of the iron L36/67 will cut down on front wheelspin :drive:
i dont know about a twin, twincharged 3800 442 though :lol:
i cant decide whether Al or the 442 is more insane :D

once the longblock is together it and the 01 GP GT harness and PCM will be going into the front of the 442 with some wiring changes to make use of the built 60e already in the front, with some codes deleted by Powrtuner.
at that point since we will be using 3 secondary electrical systems (front and rear powertrain, and vehicle wiring for lights etc) with 1 primary (main power for starters, fuse panels) we will also go ahead and weld in the halo bar and front down legs of the 10 point rollcage as well as we may turn it into a 12 point cage with through firewall tubes to tie into the front unibody rails, we need the L36/67 in there for clearance checking
and then we will start with the from scratch dash assembly to hold all the Autometer gauges, two check engine lights and two DLC connectors (basically two of everything lol)

so it looks like the next time the 442 see's the track we'll have a powrtuned M90'd L36 in the front with a turbocharged SI 3800 in the rear (we are looking for another 01 GP harness for the rear, OBDII the SI) with a WOT actuator for dragstrip launching and a full rollcage with custom dashboard...


I am currently working on improvement's to the oiling system and block of the 98 L36 shortblock as well as other small improvements to eek out as much power as possible (relieving the top of the bores to unshroud the valves, crank scraper etc.)
in this pic you can see the much smaller number 2 and 3 main passages that are even further restricted by the cam bearings, i am working on a fixture that should let me gauge the thickness of the main webs and how far i can drill them out to (i doubt there is enough material for a 10mm passage like the number 1 main and probably more like the number 4 main dia of 8mm, 2 and 3 are ~7mm but at the cam bearings the area of the passage is equal to a ~4.5-5mm dia hole...hardly sufficient to provide enough oil to the main bearings and #2,3,4,5 rod bearings at high rpm...even with really tight bearing clearances.
the pressure drop at the cam bearings is detrimental any way you look at it...
Image

we need to focus on getting the 3100 in the 93 GP and parts for the L36/67 going in the front of the 442

then hello 7.6L :D

Image



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:40 am 
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Hi Turbocharged400sbc,

Looking good, so far.

Quote:
........ the sick part is Al wants to throw the turbo on feeding the blower ........

If it increases power, how could it be sick?

Quote:
........ a blower would prob help more in the rear ........
........ so it looks like the next time the 442 sees the track we'll have a powrtuned M90'd L36 in the front with a turbocharged SI 3800 in the rear ........

Most important part of the ¼ mile, is the first 3 ft. A Roots, fed by a hairdryer, in the rear, and only a turbo up front, makes sense to me. Front engine could use the inherent "turbo lag" to its advantage, with max boost coming on after the 60', where it would do the most good. Also, excessive stall would not be needed just to "spool" the turbos.

Now, two blowers on each might approach sickness.

Quote:
........ crank scraper ........

Good theory but, IMO, not much help. Can't hurt, though.

Quote:
........ smaller number 2 and 3 main passages that are even further restricted by the cam bearings ........ ........ but at the cam bearings the area of the passage is equal to a ~4.5-5mm dia hole...hardly sufficient to provide enough oil to the main bearings and #2,3,4,5 rod bearings at high rpm ........ ........

I'm not following? You can't be saying the mains/rods are fed from the cam bearings.

Quote:
........ even with really tight bearing clearances.

Tight clearances are not a good substitute for a high volume pump and a free flowing filter.

Norm



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:49 am 
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Man- This is gotta be one of the best custom jobs out there. Good work!



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:02 am 
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88 Coupe wrote:
Hi Turbocharged400sbc,

Looking good, so far.

Quote:
........ the sick part is Al wants to throw the turbo on feeding the blower ........

If it increases power, how could it be sick?

sick, crazy, insane it's all the same... :lol:

88 Coupe wrote:
Quote:
........ a blower would prob help more in the rear ........
........ so it looks like the next time the 442 sees the track we'll have a powrtuned M90'd L36 in the front with a turbocharged SI 3800 in the rear ........

Most important part of the ¼ mile, is the first 3 ft. A Roots, fed by a hairdryer, in the rear, and only a turbo up front, makes sense to me. Front engine could use the inherent "turbo lag" to its advantage, with max boost coming on after the 60', where it would do the most good. Also, excessive stall would not be needed just to "spool" the turbos.

i agree but for now we want a 3800 in the front and instead of just being NA we'll be blown...it was cheap enough and it "fell" into my lap before we bought the rest of the components for a L36...i will be cutting the two L36 LIM's so i can weld em together for the SI/SII hybrid...from there a sheetmetal UIM is fairly straightforward for a turbo setup....hell even a setup to mount an M90 on top wouldnt be too difficult

88 Coupe wrote:
Now, two blowers on each might approach sickness.

shhhh dont suggest that to Al....otherwise he'll be having me turbocharge a twin blower 3800 :lol: :shock:

88 Coupe wrote:
Quote:
........ crank scraper ........

Good theory but, IMO, not much help. Can't hurt, though.

the SI oil scrapper isnt too bad but the SII engines have a very small unit that from the looks of things could easily be overloaded, every little bit helps :wink:

88 Coupe wrote:
Quote:
........ smaller number 2 and 3 main passages that are even further restricted by the cam bearings ........ ........ but at the cam bearings the area of the passage is equal to a ~4.5-5mm dia hole...hardly sufficient to provide enough oil to the main bearings and #2,3,4,5 rod bearings at high rpm ........ ........

I'm not following? You can't be saying the mains/rods are fed from the cam bearings.

no the mains are fed by a drilled passage through the web to the main oil galley (rear bank in FWD's) EXACTLY like the GN 3.8's and just like the GN engine GM didnt drill em to the same Dia as #1 and 4 the problem lies in the fact that the cam bearing OD seriously intrudes into the drilled passage (which is where the bearing oil hole is aligned to) especially on the #2 and 3 mains i will be making a simple fixture to let me gauge the thickness of the web on either side of the OE passage and see how far i can open it up to.
the aluminum TIG rod shows the passage and should give a better idea of what i am refering to in this pic
Image

88 Coupe wrote:
Quote:
........ even with really tight bearing clearances.

Tight clearances are not a good substitute for a high volume pump and a free flowing filter.

Norm

the 3.8 and 3800 engines are better off with tighter clearances than most sbc or other engine buildups, even rod side clearances should be held to the tight side of spec
not to mention the SII engines are at even more of a disadvantage since it is a lower volume pump than the SI (the pump scroll is thinner than the SI aka less volume) and is one of the reasons i want to improve oil flow, both on the suction side and pressure side of the system...
not to mention the pump/T chain cover has casting flash that really needs to be removed and cleaned up to help things out...

you guys will be kept informed on my work

andrewk wrote:
Man- This is gotta be one of the best custom jobs out there. Good work!

it's only the begining....lol thanks



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:18 pm 
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Quote:
........ the cam bearing OD seriously intrudes into the drilled passage ........
Quote:
........ it is a lower volume pump than the SI ........

Not what I would have expected, but it does explain your challenge.

You cannot increase volume, how about restricting part of what you have?

In my first BB, I restricted the pushrods with pipe cleaners. Not practical for you.

From then on, I drilled a .062" hole, in each of my cam bearings, 180° from the existing feed holes, and installed them accordingly. More oil to the bottom and still enough to cool the valve springs.

Unless the top is already marginal, I don't see why you couldn't do the same.

Quote:
........ the 3.8 and 3800 engines are better off with tighter clearances than most sbc or other engine buildups, even rod side clearances should be held to the tight side of spec ........

What? Are you saying you can't use the same .0035", .0030", and .020" that I do?

Tighter clearances for smaller journals is a given. The newer stuff is even closer, to allow the use of thinner oils and their additive packages.

Because of your pump's limited volume, it's a moot point.

andrewk wrote:
........ Good work!

X-2

Norm



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:36 am 
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thanks guys! i seem to be getting more cheers than jeer's at this point in the whole 3800 world, i guess i'm getting through to people that OE isnt perfect :lol: more people are interested in my work than ever before (especially some local GP guys)

on to the topic at hand

drilling the main bearing passages should fix the issues that are seen on the SII's that i've come across, if i were to give it a number i would say that ~80% of SII "spun bearings" were on cylinders 2,3,4,5 and some on #6 i have never come across a #1 failure but that may not be the case as i havent seriously searched for a case of it occuring.
Oil restricting pushrods arent new to the 3800's but are more of a bandaid instead of a solution, i have also noted that in several cases 3800's with OR pushrods have had instances of broken springs (mostly OE) this may be from overheating of the spring with the reduced cooling from lack of oil.

if the GN is any indication the main drilling and porting of the oil filter housing should be good for 90% of buildups. these engines are much more sensitive to detonation damage than say a V8 and with the main bearing oiling issues thats not helping matters any with detonation hammering already starved bearings...

we on the other hand are going to be taking the oiling mods overkill

Image
by using a plate where the oil filter adaptor is i'll be running an external sump line to a pickup in the pan similar to this:
Image
this removes 2 90* turns alone as well as alowing for a larger suction line dia, along with the crank scraper and windage tray it'll have a couple baffles to help keep the pickup submerged.

the plate will also alow me to run an S10 remote filter housing (and an oil cooler when the turbo is installed) and the feed from the filter will be going into the port on the side of the block which is a straight shot to the #1 cam bearing which then feeds the main oil galley this bypasses 2 sharp 90* turns but also still uses the OE oil pressure valve. in parallel with this feed from the filter is an additional hardline that goes through the front bulkhead into the lifter valley and joins into the main oil galley between the cyl 4 and 6 lifters.

along with those modifications i'll be epoxying debris screens in the valley drainback holes and as much as i would like to block them off and force the oil to return through the front T chain cover area to reduce windage it is a bit impractical to plug up the massive drainback holes in the tappet valley....

and onto the update!
a new toy we recently aquired... :D
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Image

yeah thats a 4 inch inlet i think this is the badboy that will be feeding the front L36/67 :shock:

we got a buncha parts from a 98 regal GS supercharged 3800 from the Jyard for 222$
L67 heads (with coilpack/tensioner bracket
Image
misc brackets and a delco reman starter and new waterpump (sooo cheap! lol) alternator etc.
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and stock 36# L67 injectors (these will be maxed with a 3.4 pulley on a high compression L36/L67 engine but we should be fine for a bit before we need to get 60lb injectors)
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a pic of mockup (so i can plan the external oil line routing)
Image

on the SI/SII Hybrid front this is a pic of the cut line layout for sectioning two L36 LIM's for the wider spacing of the SI block, once it is cut i will be welding them back together and finally have an intake!
then i can get going on the upper intake (if Al has his way a twin blower arrangment :lol: )
Image

thats all for now...stay tuned



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:13 pm 
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Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
........ this may be from overheating of the spring with the reduced cooling from lack of oil ........

I would bet on it.

Quote:
........ by using a plate where the oil filter adapter is it'll be running an external sump line to a pickup in the pan ........

With some sort of check valve, I hope.

Norm



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:17 pm 
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figured ya'll might want an update....much of the work is ongoing but here's the new front engines and some recent work to spruce 'er up for the oldsmobile nationals in early sept at Byron dragway IL

the nice shiney engine made us do the subframe/etc lol

still being assembled...yeah thats polished stainless hardware and polished aluminum 8-) not for going fast (though i guess polishing stuff removes material so we are dropping weight :D ) but it does look nice...
Image

and some more...
stripped the cosmoline and grime off then we sandblasted the subframe...

Image

Al may be in all the pics but he's not the only one doing the work...

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done primed and painted

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front 94 cutty swaybar (FE2?), we get the urethane bushings soon... oneday maybe we'll find an FE3 bar...

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toss in a little gold

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this should match the shiney engine better eh?

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ohhh boy we cant wait...

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what we still need to clean....

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looks like the 93 GrandPrix SE that Al got with a hydraulic'd 3.4 TDC is getting the 90 LN3/440t4 since we had to yank the 3100 (originally from the 442) from the 93 GP to fix his sisters 98 montecarlo that blew it's engine 3 weeks out of the used stealership lol

then the 5000 mile (yeah ya read that right!) 04 L67 shortblock and heads will be going into the rear of the 442 with a 4t80e tranaxle (the "1 ton" FWD tans) from a caddy...
it's getting polished as well... :lol:
Image
front AC will be functional...dont know if we'll polish the compressor or not but this was...
Image

oh and these are on the shelves waiting for us to use them (after we have two stock L67's running anyways) Intense stg3 blower cam, intense 3.0 and 2.6 inch Modular pulley system (vs 3.8in stock) short stack intercooler core, 65lbhr injectors, 105lb springs and some other stuff like ARP stud kits, SC couplers, etc :twisted:
Image
Image
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pssst check this out...SII head and manifold sliced up...not bad for OE but deffinatly some room for improvement
Image

just an update from the two olds nuts :wink:



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:41 pm 
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I see a harbor freight spot blaster :doh:
Mine never works right... :lol:

Everything sure does look spiffy.... :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:37 pm 
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thanks B!

yeah they can have issues i've learned to rotate the valve and feather the airtrigger and i tend to get pretty even coverage... we've reused that 19lb bucket like 5 times on all sorts of stuff and are down to half what we had :lol:

yeah...once we bought that first 8inch buffing wheel the bug had us 8-)



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:20 am 
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some new pics!
Al after cleaning the 442 some more
Image
me installing the case/rotor needle bearings (i have a whole series of pics on the M90 rotor bearings replacment and assembly too!)
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our ugly mugs
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x284 ... dstill.jpg
fully assembled with polished stainless allen head cap screws (actually lighter than the stock bolts by 3/4 of a gram! so norm they're functional too! :lol: )
Image
Image
yup even the sensors and TB! just under 1/4 gram savings each (mainly from cutdown thread length)
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isnt she sexy? :wink:
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Image
Image
yes even the valve cover bolts are getting the treatment!
Image
still have lots more polishing (stainless std hex exhaust bolts, WP and T cover and oil filter adaptor etc....and final assembly before she can get dropped in!
http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x284 ... sstill.jpg



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:43 pm 
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wow... sexy is right...



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:11 am 
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looks awsome



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