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 Post subject: Full Engine Rebuild....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:06 am 
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I don't know if I actually really said it...might have been hinted by the timing chain set, and me taking the intake manifold off, but I am going to do a full engine rebuild...and the transmission. This is on the 1987 Delta 88....

Any thing to be said...like what to watch out for, and what to do and not to do when rebuilding/taking the engine out?

I've read the Haynes manual, looked at ALLDATA....read through a Saturn forum, where a person posted a very well document engine rebuild.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Hi Brando, hello everyone,

Quote:
........ Any thing to be said...like what to watch out for, and what to do and not to do when rebuilding/taking the engine out? .........

Never forget to take care of the details. It's what separates the hacks from the pros.

Make you use a competent machine shop and quality parts. If you plan on selling the car right away, disregard the previous and shop for the lowest prices.

You can't imagine the satisfaction gained from assembling your own engine and transmission until you've experienced it.

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:59 pm 
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During this the discussion, I realized my above post was incomplete.

Brando wrote:
I've never had an engine bored, how much does it usually run?

You should have already known the answer at the time you asked. Starting at the machine shop is always first, and I should not have assumed you knew that.

88 Coupe wrote:
Brando wrote:
........ Any thing to be said...like what to watch out for, and what to do and not to do when rebuilding ........

Make you use a competent machine shop and quality parts ........

I should have added: An experienced shop will have already encountered any known problems, and will make you aware of them.

Make sure you choose a shop that does custom work in addition to "bread an butter" rebuilds. They will be able to discuss your project in detail, and help you choose the best specs, and parts, for your intended use. They can also correct any misinformation you might have collected on the internet. This should be the last step in the planning stage.

Brando wrote:
........ read the Haynes manual, looked at ALLDATA ........

Good information if you are not doing the highest quaity job. As I think about it, maybe you should not shoot for perfection, your first time out.

Brando wrote:
........ where a person posted a very well documented engine rebuild ........

From whose viewpoint? Do you still have the link?

FWIW: I dismantle the engine, check wear (particularly cylinder taper) then take all reuseable parts, along with my specs, to the shop.

If there are any problems, they give me a call. If not, they call when they are finished.

I pay the bill, pick up the parts, take them home and assemble them. While doing that, I check all clearances and dimensions, starting with the block/crank, then with every part that goes in, or on, it.

While doing one of my 215s, I discovered a .020" rod bearing set marked .010". Only a minor inconvenience as I was able to continue, the following day, with the correct parts.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:49 am 
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Brando, take lots of pics... I am quite interested, since this is the exact same motor, same car as mine. I may never rebuild the delta, but I'd love to see whats inside!



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:47 pm 
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Hmm...I'll try to take pics....I still have to take the damn thing out....all I need to do is take the transaxle to engine bolts out, the hood, and lift it out.

I've been taking a few things out here and there after class and over weekends....I didn't do much of anything with it during the summer....I had autolazitis or something.... :lol:

Hopefully I can take it out next weekend...this weekend I have a philosophy paper to write, and a calculus II midterm... :confused:

Thanks for the tips norm, I don't have the saturn link on hand....can't seem to find it now...by detailed I meant it had a lot of pics of what he did, not the process he took.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:39 pm 
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Quote:
........ by detailed I meant it had a lot of pics of what he did, not the process he took ........

OK, not as useful as I thought they might be.

Your project deserves its own pics, anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:55 pm 
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Well, I had my buddy come over today and we went to work on it. Figured it was finally time to pull the engine... :shock: :lol:

ImageImageImage

Been a while since I've paid any attention to her....earlier today I just sat in the driver's seat and reminisced of the memories I've had driving her... :)

It's currently 12F and I am thawing off as I type this.

Everything went fairly smooth, until I went to lift it and it wanted to take the trans with it....I missed one bolt from the trans case to engine. It seemed to be the most difficult to get to (out of all the bolts I've removed on this car), insanely placed....impossible to get to. My buddy had to leave at that time, so I was left to decide on how to get that damn bolt out. I was able to access it from the OTHER side of the engine, I think I used all the 3/8" extensions I had.... :lol: Actually pretty nice placement, good thing they put the bolt head facing that way!

That's all for now...still on the hoist....awaiting the engine stand...but I don't have long enough bolts to mount it to the stand, have to get some tomorrow morning. :doh:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:45 pm 
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Brando wrote:
....earlier today I just sat in the driver's seat and reminisced of the memories I've had driving her... :)


I do that from time to time aswell... just sit in the car, and turn on the stereo...



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Camshaft button is TOAST. Got the timing cover off and that thing was in pieces. Not sure if the cover is supposed to be so rough in that area...it looks like someone turned it on the lathe real fast (rough cut, looks like tree rings) and didn't center the bit properly...so there's a point in the middle....sure anyone who's done a little lathe work knows what I'm talking about.

Anyone know if that's normal?

Quote:
Camshaft Thrust Plate: Customer Interest
Engine - Knocking Noise Just Above Idle
SUBJECT NEW DESIGN SPRING AND BEARING ASSEMBLY
(CAMSHAFT THRUST)
MODELS/YEARS SEE VEHICLE APPLICATION BELOW
NUMBER: 87-T-55
DATE: November 9, 1987
SECTION: 6A
Vehicle Application:
1982-85 Cutlass Ciera with 3.0L V6 Engine (VIN Code E) 1985-87 Cutlass Calais with 3.0L V6 Engine (VIN Code L) 1984-85 Cutlass Ciera and
Ninety-Eight with 3.8L V6 Engine (VIN Code 3) 1986 Ninety-Eight and Toronado with 3.8L V6 Engine (VIN Code B) 1986-87 Cutlass Ciera, Delta 88,
Ninety-Eight and Toronado with 3.8L V6 Engine (VIN Code 3)
Some of the above engines may experience excessive wear to the front cover thrust surface and the camshaft thrust button. An engine with this condition
may exhibit a knocking noise most audible just above idle. This knocking noise could be caused by the camshaft chucking (fore and aft movement) in the
block.

Image

A needle bearing and spring assembly, Part Number 25532588, is available through GMSPO to address the above conditions. The needle bearing will
reduce wear to the front cover thrust surfaces and the spring has a higher load rating which will reduce camshaft chucking.
NOTICE: A higher load rate spring and bearing assembly should not be used with the early design Phenolic plastic button. First and second designs
are illustrated on the reverse side.
When servicing these engines with the front cover removed, for any other reason, install the new spring and bearing assembly if wear to the button is
noted. The front cover does not need to be replaced unless the thrust surface is out of flatness by more than 1/16 of an inch.


Mine definitely did not receive this treatment....no needle bearings, just a solid metal button...in pieces.

Should I smooth out the "thrust surface" in the timing cover? Nevermind...I just reread the TSB....needs to be replaced if out of flatness by more than 1/16 (.0625"), just measured and got about .0690" or so...lol...yea, the cam button has a hole worn through it, so I used that middle part as a reference point for the depth gauge. Looks like timing cover replacement is necessary...as well as cam shaft button of course.

I was wondering what all the silver goop around the spring/button remains was....timing cover shavings... :lol: :doh:

I'll try to get some pictures if possible...wonder if this caused my "rough idle"... :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:25 pm 
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Here's some pictures...hopefully they show something... :lol: Kodak FTL.

Here is the timing cover....you can see where it is "freshly machined"...
Image

Here's a close up..."trying" to show more detail...notice the raised point in the center. Pretty badly worn down.
Image

The largest remaining pieces of the camshaft button.
Image

Notice all the metal sprinkles all over the camshaft timing gear...
Image

This engine doesn't even have that many miles on it, pretty cheap design it would seem.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm 
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Brando wrote:
........ pretty cheap design it would seem.

Yep. Thrust button is a band-aid. Not needed in the earlier 231s.

Maybe our, resident Buick "expert" can explain the difference.

Norm



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:58 am 
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Here's my camshaft timing gear....the stock nylon teeth type. One tooth is missing, several cracks around the sides.
Image

Block is stripped....except for the freeze plugs, still need to remove those. Took the camshaft bearings out.
Image

Next up is bringing the block to a shop and getting it prepped.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:34 am 
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Brando wrote:
........ Next up is bringing the block to a shop ........

You might want to take the crankshaft, piston/rod assemblies, and (if you won't be doing them yourself) the heads.

Norm



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Just got my remanufactured timing cover from the UPS man...the wear is worse than I thought it was. Looks like it was at least an 1/8" lower than it should be. New cover looks good....like new... :D
I got the new "thrust bearing" design from NAPA...pretty sure they don't even sell that "phenolic plastic" washer any more. Bearing looks to be a good design and should last a long long time.
Image

That's about it for now...

I'm prepping the heads myself....got some NOS heads fairly cheap. Pistons are new, rods look to be fine, but I will check them over. Crankshaft is set to go as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Alright, here's a comparison of the new timing cover to the old timing cover...

Image Image

Much better...

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