Hi Everyone,
I haven't been here in a while, but I am asking for some help.
1973 Delta 88 Royale, 350 2 bbl.
I've owned the car for two years. I had the car tuned up in May and it's up to date on oil changes.
This is the first trouble I've had with the car and it's a little hard to explain so bear with me.
Sometimes when I turn the key the starter spins (it does engage the flywheel and the fan spins) but it really is not turning the engine over.
Other times it starts normally and idles fine... until I put it into gear. After it's in gear for a few seconds I hear one or two clicks and the car stalls.
If I try to restart it either starts or spins as described above.
Is there a valve or something in the transmission that could be causing both the spinning and the stalling? I won't be trying to fix this myself, I just thought you might be able to give me some idea of what I may hear when I bring the car in to a shop.

Thank you,

Dean

Hi 2ROCKETS73, hello everyone,


If the fan turns, the engine is turning.

So the engine turns normally, but doesn't start? Does it happen when the engine is cold, warm, or both?


What does it take to get it started?

Anything I say without hearing those "clicks" is a "shot in the dark".


No, and no.


Shooting from the hip:
If we ignore the clicks, it could be an ignition wire grounding on, or a loose ground wire on the breaker plate. Should be a minor repair. Same shop that did the tuneup might even do it for free.

Regards, Norm

Hi Norm,

Thanks for the reply. It happens both cold and warm. The only reason I asked about something in the transmission is because when it does start it will idle for quite awhile and not stall, until I put it in gear. I'm glad to hear that's not a possibility.
I know that if the flywheel and fan are turning, then the engine is turning, but it sounds and feels so much different than when it turns over "normally". It really does sound like nothing else is connected between the flywheel and fan... impossible. The car won't start when it spins like that, although I turn the key off after a second for fear of doing damage to the starter or something.
It doesn't take anything special to get it started when it turns over "normally".
The car will be going into the shop, but maybe not until September. My van is there right now for service and vacation is coming up.
Sorry for the long post, didn't want to leave anything out.

Dean

sounds like your starter solenoid to me...

Hi 2ROCKETS73, all,


I still don't understand the "clicks". How loud, and where do they seem to come from?


This is where the communication gap is. Is the engine turning slower? Or is it not turning? Or? I need to understand everything that's different when the problem occurs.


Not a problem. You're trying to put the same information into words, that my five senses would have given me in five seconds. How many words is a picture worth? Now, consider that the picture only covers one of those senses.


Battery cable connections should have been cleaned as part of the tune and the PM. Were they?


As I understand it so far, the starter does turn the engine. If so, the solenoid works.

If the plunger doesn't move, the starter cannot turn, as the contact doesn't close until after the drive pinion is meshed with the flywheel.

Regards, Norm

Hi everyone,

Norm,
The clicks are loud enough to hear with my lousy hearing. I know it is important, but I can't tell where they are coming from yet. The turning/spinning is really hard to explain. When I turn the key the fan spins, but it seems like nothing else is happening. It's like an electric motor turning a fan.
The starter is working. I took the cover off and had someone else turn the key while I was under there. The starter engages every time but, sometimes it actually sounds like the engine is turning over and other times just the fan spins. It's as if there is no (for the lack of a better word) resistance. As if nothing in the engine is moving or trying to build compression.
When it turns over "normally" the engine rocks a little, nothing abnormal, but it moves a bit. When it does that spinning, the engine is dead still and only the fan moves. It feels like pistons, valves etc. are not moving because it's so still.
The battery cable connections were not cleaned during tune up, but I did clean them. My mechanic that I had been going to for years died of cancer so I'm at a new place that I don't know well. Now that you mention that, the positive cable did feel hot after trying to start the car a few times. Sorry, I should have recalled that and mentioned it in my first post.
I don't know if it was hotter than it should have been, both ends are clean and tight.
Norm, I will be in California during my vacation, I wish I could bring the car out with me and let you hear it.

thanks again, Dean

Should be warm at the most. The positive wire to/from the alternator should also be checked, along with the two small wires at the solenoid. Same with the ground cables. Above are PM items and there is little chance they are the root cause. But .... it doesn't hurt to check them.


In person, any working tech should be able to diagnose it in seconds. I’ll be content just to know the results.


Just for grins, pull the dist cap and see if you can move the brass conductor around on the rotor.

Norm

Hi Everyone,

I've resurrected an old topic to let you know that the car is running well again and tell you what the solution was.
After returning from our California trip in September my mother got
sick and was in and out of the hospital until she passed away in December. Of course I had to let the car sit.
Over the past couple of weeks an acquaintance of mine has been coming over and working on the car. His job in the seventies was working on GM cars at a dealership. Norm, you were right about a competent technician listening to the car and diagnosing the problem quickly. After about five seconds he said it was most likely the timing chain or one of the gears.
After taking everything apart we found the cam gear had lost most of it's plastic (or nylon ?)coating and also had broken some teeth. When the plastic breaks off the diameter of the gear becomes significantly smaller.
The chain was in one piece, but it must have been just slipping around the gears, sometimes starting the car and sometimes not.
I still don't know what those mysterious clicks were (unless they were teeth breaking off the gear) but they have not returned.
Don't get me wrong, I have not driven the car more than a mile since it's been put back together but it is starting, idling in gear and not stalling at all.
That finally brings me to my reason for this long post, my question.
How important is it to remove the oil pan and clean out any remaining bits of plastic? (I have a feeling I know) I got out a good handful of bits when we took the cover off, but I'm sure there is more. The removal seems like a pain according to my manual, but I sure don't want to do any damage by driving the car this way. Frank, the mechanic, says not to worry about it because the screen around the oil filter will keep any bits from being picked up.
Thanks in advance for reading this novel and for your opinions.

Dean

Sorry to hear about you mother.


It all makes sense, now.


It was turning over, but without compression, due to the valves opening/closing at the wrong times. Like cranking it with no plugs.


He's right.

Thanks for the followup.

Norm

Hi Everyone,

Norm, thanks for the reply. In my post I meant to say the screen
around the oil pump, not oil filter. I suspect you knew that.
I value your opinion as well as Frank's, so I guess I'll leave it alone.
Sometimes I worry too much.

Dean