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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:10 am 
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yeah i have seen that link in my cruising of street commodores, so interesting info eh? i wonder if i should email drJay that... :wink:

nothing new as it has been on the back burner to get ready for UM3 the MyMonte.com meet at US41 dragway Morroco IN (60* and 90* V6's supercharged turbocherged you name it...but we will be the only Really heavily modified W body there :lol: )

see more here: UM3 info

i am not at my home computer but i belive that because of the shorter deck height the SII piston has a shorter compression height...
one of my thoughts was to use a forged 4.3L V6 crank (dimentially very similar and the forged ones are cheaper than the Billet cranks sold by Intense racing and others (SII-SI cranks is only available through an OZ company i believe) machine the rod journals to honda big end sizes and run custom rods with SII pistons or aftermarket Forged pistons (the SII has a either a smaller or larger dish than the factory SI pistons-again not at my home puter where all the Honey info is...
the problem with the SI cam actuating the valvetrain of the SII heads is that the lobes (I&E) need to be swapped on # 5 and 2 the other cyliders are symetrical...just like the SII heads
we will need to use the SII cam or get a custom SI cam with the lobe grinds switched, I am banking on using the SII cam as it looks like there is relativly little work involved in getting the cam retainer plate to bolt on and we are going the cheap route...but who knows if we deside to get a turbo spec cam we may just get a modified, aftermarket SI cam.

well wish us luck the 442 will be getting her first track time! I am hoping (though with teh rollcage and interior installed she is a little "fat" ) that we can pull a 13.8 which isnt bad for two basically factory engines with some porting/valve work...the best i am hoping for is a 13.5 but without knowing her weight (hope to run her over the scales) that is hard to guestimate...

just wait fer the Vids :twisted:
I will be doing a good DVD of her as well...

James



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:36 pm 
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Hi Turbocharged400sbc, All,

Quote:
.......... one of my thoughts was to use a forged 4.3L V6 crank ..........

Since heads are the only real difference between SI and SII, I'd like to see you wait 'till you find out what the aspirated hybrid will actually do.
What I'd most like to see, is the hybrid only, but in the rear, as lots of negative stuff happens with a front drive.

Quote:
.......... the lobes (I&E) need to be swapped on # 5 and 2 the other cyliders are symetrical...just like the SII heads ..........

Wrong cylinders, My bad.

Question was not phrased well.
2 and 5 cylinders should be companions. If so, will the SI cam will work with its revised firing order?

As you've already guessed, I've seen multiple engines before.
My interest is in the power available with the superior SII heads on the superior SI block while using no useless aftermarket parts.

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:31 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
Hi Turbocharged400sbc, All,

Quote:
.......... one of my thoughts was to use a forged 4.3L V6 crank ..........

Since heads are the only real difference between SI and SII, I'd like to see you wait 'till you find out what the aspirated hybrid will actually do.
What I'd most like to see, is the hybrid only, but in the rear, as lots of negative stuff happens with a front drive.

Quote:
.......... the lobes (I&E) need to be swapped on # 5 and 2 the other cyliders are symetrical...just like the SII heads ..........

Wrong cylinders, My bad.

Question was not phrased well.
2 and 5 cylinders should be companions. If so, will the SI cam will work with its revised firing order?

As you've already guessed, I've seen multiple engines before.
My interest is in the power available with the superior SII heads on the superior SI block while using no useless aftermarket parts.

Regards, Norm


# 2 & 5 lobes would be backwards with the intake lobe of the SI cam opening the exhaust valve of the SII head so the custom SI cam would have to have the intake and exhaust lobes (phasing) swapped... 2 & 5 use the same coil (wasted spark) and are companions but without the valves opening at the correct times (fer some reason if i just used the SI cam i recalled that people have taken the flathead ford V8 and used the exhaust ports as the intakes and the intake ports as the exhaust....i would have to do that to those two cyliners only...LOL :lol: ) it wouldnt work...
i either get a custom ground SI cam blank with the SII lobes/phasing
or use the early SII cam in the SI block ( which looks easier not to mention cheaper :D )

I brought up the 4.3L crank thought as it would (if we had the coin) let me get custom forged pistons with custom length (honda big end bore) rods to get a real nice rod/stroke ratio as well as being able to ofset grind a forged aftermarket 4.3L crank for say 4.2L of displacment and the ability to handle the Turbocharger at say 20 psi boost and 50-100Hp of Nitrous...

but needless to say this is Lowbuck redneck hotrodding so i doubt i will go that far...besides i need to start working on my own twin engine monster...

we will be keeping her twin engine'd as it's just so unique among the modern FWD cars... (havent found out about anyone else in IL that has one :lol: ) but yes most of the work will be involving the rear engine as it's the one recieving all the weight transfer on launch...if we come acrost a 94-97 Regal 3800 though we will swap that (bolt in-it's a W body also) in to have 7.6L... whether we get to turbocharge the front we will have to see...

As for the SI and SII hybrid it will be using all the factory parts i can use though with the 12 injector setup and the intake ducting for the turbocharger on the rear engine it will be easier to use a sheetmetal UIM with the TB (N* or LS1) located on the belt drive side which will be closest to the outlet of the air to air and (hopefully i can do it) the air to freon intercooler right after it, this should minimize restrictive bends...

and if we do get to use the SII cam in the Si block we will prob get one of Intense's SII Turbo cams... that will be the only aftermarket part in the engine (besides the custom length pushrods) but we will have to use aftermarket Blow of valves/ boost controlers with it (the Mitsu turbo from the GM Sy/Ty has an internal wastgate) while running the MegaSquirt DIY EFI (might want to google that, some mighty fine stuff that Bowling and Grippo have done and it's shareware!-some of it anyway...) that will drive the 12 fuel injectors :twisted:

BTW i dont know if we will do the Hybrid as just N/A as it will be easier to just do the Turbo with the hybrid package...

i hope i answered your 2 and 5 lobe question to your satisfaction, as you stated " If so, will the SI cam will work with its revised firing order?" if you were refering to a custom lobe phased SI cam (which would work)? or refering to the SII (missed an "I"?) cam with the correct symetrical port (heads) lobe phasing?

Man i wish i had access to a digitizer so i could have CAD models of it....

James



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94 Olds 442 Twin engine's! 6.9L/425 cu inches and 12 cylinders!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:47 pm 
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Hi Hi Turbocharged400sbc, All

Quote:
......... the intake and exhaust lobes (phasing) swapped........ i hope i answered your 2 and 5 lobe question to your satisfaction ...........

You did, both times.

I was remembering something from the past (not flat head :lol:) and forgot it has to be suck, squeeze, bang, blow. If it's not in that order it won't work.

I just forgot to think before I typed, both times. :oops:

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:21 pm 
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Wooo! looks like i have a junk SII 1996 engine to be able to take some detailed measurments of...just have to find out when i can grab it...sux its not the supercharged otherwise i'd have the heads that i am looking fer but it is the block i am needing for cam tunel measurements

I am hoping it still has the cam/tchain and intake on it...but if not it still helps me towards my goal!

now i just need to find a junk Si LN3 3800 block fer testing/mocking up...since the 3800 we will be using (in the final incarnation) is still in the 442....

james



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:06 am 
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andrewk and 88 coupe (andrew and norm)

but i felt better posting this in my thread as a partial response to your posts in 3.8 rocker arms here

i would love to make the SI heads work...but the additional benifit of the SII setup is i can use the heads with the injector bungs in them (L67 SC heads) with the L36 (NA SII) lower intake with a couple of spacers with the injector bungs in it so that i can run 12 30lb hr injectors whic i have avail cheaply (factory fuel inj for Quad 4 H.O. 4 cylinders)-FREE and which MegaSquirt EFI will run most effectivly for overal drivability and tuning, i can program it with 4 modes of "power" and it will use the correct tables as well as control boost...

as norm stated this is going to be a turbocharged project, so yes i could use the SI heads...but they are still restrictive, go to a few of the holden boards and youll see some high$$ heads that just barely outflow pocket ported SII heads
one is just plain better than the other (much like some factory head castings on the SB BOP & Chevy heads) also since i would like to run a cam optimized for use with a turbocharger a custom SI cam(with SII lobe placment/timing events) or a cheaper aftermarket SII cam which is readily available....

the SI block is tall deck so i could put longer aftermarket rods in with lower comp height pistons and play with all sorts of things...but i dont have the $ but i have resourcfullness, and good ole' redneck engine-uity

I could upgrade to the L27 heads but why? look at the H "Hairy" olds we are trying to go with the orig engineer's thinking of....you guessed it more power! lol along with uniqness that made it so popular, and great advertizing...
i hope they like it when i ask Hurst fer permission to use the same colors/sceme for our 442....son of hairy

I am a gearhead, and i am enjoying the challenge...plenty of big names today started with a challenge of making more power...

now if i could just find a way to get a free pair of billet CNC machined aluminum heads with nice ports....who knows the SI/SII market is def ready for an aftermarket head...just look at the GN market...
hmmm maybe i can make some $ lol

James



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:31 am 
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Well I now have an L27 long block as well as an L36 shortblock (hey if its free it fer me...) and the crankshafts look nearly identical, but the best part is the Tchain cover is identical except the SII cover has one bolt hole deleted and the other moved ~1 cm but it looks like the SII timing chain is the same except for the tooth pitch of the T chain but to use the SII chain i have to swap the oilpump from the SII cover to the SI which have identical pumps just the drive tooth engagment is different...on the SII crank gear...dampners interchange as well as the crank sensor...and aside from the 4 bolt main caps (2 of the bolts are side skirt installed) the blocks are identical with different accesory bolt boss's and the short deck...

I will let ya'll know more when i take more measurments....

so far so good....



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:13 am 
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Keep up the awesome work! This topic is very intriguing.



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:50 pm 
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Hi James, All,

Quote:
............ aside from the 4 bolt main caps (2 of the bolts are side skirt installed) the blocks are identical with different accesory bolt boss's and the short deck ........... so far so good....

I wonder what power level, those four bolts would actually be needed? Still thinking about bragging rights gained from using the SI block.

Keep it coming.

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:16 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
Hi James, All,

Quote:
............ aside from the 4 bolt main caps (2 of the bolts are side skirt installed) the blocks are identical with different accesory bolt boss's and the short deck ........... so far so good....

I wonder what power level, those four bolts would actually be needed? Still thinking about bragging rights gained from using the SI block.

Keep it coming.

Regards, Norm


well for a more rigid crankcase it would help but unless there is a severe issue with main cap fretting, i dont see this being an issue...
but to tell you the truth..i have yet to measure but just by looking at them it would appear that the SI block has thicker internal webs/bulkheads...

yes it is coming along nicely...just wait till i have the lists of measuments and 100's of pics to post on this topic...info overload lol

James



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:39 am 
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in this project the biggest question was whether i could put the early SII cam (in 97 they went to a larger cam bearing journal size) into the SI block to actuate the valves in the proper sequence (the SI has a valve arangment like this...EIIEIE where the SII is IEIEIE) well i can now say without a doubt...nope the lifter bore spacing is dead on on the middle 4 lifters but has one lifter in a radically different spot on each opposite end...
so in order to have this project continue I would need a custom SI camshaft with the SII lobe phasing (but i can wick up the duration and do a couple other turbo friendly changes to the lobe profiles)

heheheh now fer the redneck part....I have identified the 4 lobes that need to be rephased...and since i can weld...cast iron even. I can weld up the surfaces that need to be off base circle and have a cam company grind the lobe profiles...however i have found out that a friend with a lathe has a pattern follower.... so it would be possible to take the camshaft lobe profile from my Turbocharged 400 sbc aftermarket camshaft....and grind this camshaft with it... :green: though it would probably be wayy too big for the 3800...though since i will be keeping the stock (SII) rockers i can machine the heads to handle much higher lift (at the valve)

so yeah i can still doit! woot!
now the SII cam is close enough that i can use it to mock the engine up with (the rollers on the hyraulic lifters not being 100% on the camshat lobes but since i will just be mocking it up to determin intake spacer thickness and custom pushrod length...this is no problem...

ahhh redneck lowbuck hotroddin'

at least its not a flat tappet camshaft....then it would be harder for me to grind it on my own...and hell i dont really need a lathe...i could do it on the Bridgport at my old buddy's house...but a lathe would be more repeatable...

sooo how many of ya have ground your own custom cam...lol

(BTW sooo many people say that nothing will interchange between the SI/SII...they have NO clue how similar these two engines really are...)

that is all...

James



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:37 am 
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Hi Turbocharged400sbc, all,

Quote:
.......... so it would be possible to take the camshaft lobe profile from my Turbocharged 400 sbc aftermarket camshaft....and grind this camshaft with it ........

I love it.

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:45 am 
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lol

indexing it properly will be the fun part...but measure twice grind once...hehe

thank god fer dial indicators...



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:21 pm 
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progress is ongoing on the SI/SII hybrid 3800

I have 3 3800's one is a 98 SII 3800 (has the large cam bearing journals -i can use a lathe...and a case of beer :) -

an 93 3800 SI (EV6 cast into the block) from a 93 Bonneville SSE and i have the W body (Buick regal GS is the only Wbody (cutlass (ours), regal, Grand prix etc) with the 3800) oil filter mounting pad and coolant pipes.

and the 90 LN3 3800 from the 90 Olds Toronado Trofeo (still in the twin engine 442) I have yet to tear it down

well the lifter bore spacing is way different between the 98 SII cam and the 93 SI cam...the 4 center cam lobes line up perfectly but the outter 4 on each end have misalignment and one lobe on each needs to be moved the width of the lobe.

I have decided to take the billet steel SII cam and weld up alongside the lobes that need to be moved (but still maintaining the SII lobe Phasing), and using a lathe and a beltsander I will use the original section of the lobe to grind it to an identical contour and polish them (yes i AM a redneck but hey its cheap), then i can grind away the unused portion of the lobes i altered to maintain lifter to cam lobe clearance on both sides of the lifter, this will be easy to maintain the SII lobe Phasing and move the lobes laterally easier than altering the SI cam shaft 4 lobes have to be rephased as well as professionally reground and being cast iron....
Then i will turn down the cam bearing journals to the correct size and polish them

then i can throw the lifters in and check pushrod length for poss custom pushrods

I am currently looking for SII heads pref from a SC 3800 with the inj ports in the heads

I will be getting this done soon (i hope lol)

my dad has stolen the digital camera so i havent been able to get any pics of progress

I have also determined that only two bolt hole locations are different on the SII cover from the SI/i can use the SII timing chain but i have to put the SII pump into the SI cover, the pumps are identical except the SI pump is driven by two flats and the SII by a spline setup, no problem there, the cam retainers are different as the SI has 3 bolts and the SII has 2 but are otherwise identical same with the cam snouts (aside from the bearing journal diameter) the SII timing shain of course having more teeth per inch (tighter tooth pitch)

I have a 4.3L crank but havent went and compared as of yet....

I definatly like the fact that the SI short block has a better rod/stroke ratio and with a custom set of forged pistons a longer custom (or maybe even an off the shelf sbc/buick 3.8 (GN)? ) conecting rod.


James



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94 Olds 442 Twin engine's! 6.9L/425 cu inches and 12 cylinders!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:39 am 
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Hi James, all,

Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
........ the lifter bore spacing is way different between........

Do you suppose they did that to keep anyone from building a long rod SII? :lol:

Quote:
........ the SI short block has a better rod/stroke ratio .........

It's what it's all about.

Regards, Norm



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