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 Post subject: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Hey everyone, I'm new to the idea of using a Pushrod engine for performance. sitting on 2 cars, 1991 Cutlass Ciera 3300 and a 1989 Delta 88 3800.

Backround: I typically build Turbo Dodge cars (i have an Omni w/ Alch injection, CO2 cooling, and a full turbonetics turbo system, full forged internals. It holds 25lbs of Boost.) I inherited these two cars. I used to swap a 350 into everything i owned, (350 chevette was badass). my buddy in school had a '91 Lesabre that i loved for cruising. But i always wanted to supercharge it. (I'd rather turbo it, but i couldn't see any "easy" way to do that at the time with the exception of the McLaren pontiacs.)

So now on to today, My wife loves the '91 Ciera and I love the '89 Delta, I plan on going crazy on the '91, and Modest and sleeperish on the '89.

So on to the plans and my question:

1: The '89 has the 3800 w/ 103k miles on it, I've done a tiny bit of research and found out that the LN3 is very similiar to the L67, Infact, supercharging is supposidly as easy as ripping the entire top end off an L67 except the heads???? (Can that be right?) Then i recently read that Grand National heads can be "bolted on". Again, is that right?

2: Can the '91 Ciera be swapped to a L67? What brackets/mounts will i need or is it a custom job?


Questions about aftermarket:
1a: Do they make the Polimotor pushrods still? (plastic and light weight)
2a: Who makes a decent set of forged pistons for the 3800?
3a: Do polyurethane inserts exist for the engine/tranny mounts?
4a: Headstuds, worth it or not worth it?
5a: "Performance tranny rebuild" Who, where, how much, and how much force before it goes BOOM.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:01 am 
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DaytOmni wrote:
........ I'm new to the idea of using a Pushrod engine for performance ........

What is new about "pushrod" engines? More importantly, how are they any different than non "pushrod" engines?

DaytOmni wrote:
........ I typically build Turbo Dodge cars (i have an Omni w/ Alch injection, CO2 cooling, and a full turbonetics turbo system, full forged internals. It holds 25lbs of Boost.) ........

I am sure that members of a Dodge forum would be impressed.

DaytOmni wrote:
........ I used to swap a 350 into everything i owned, (350 chevette was badass) ........

If I had such impressive credentials, I would be in my shop, doing it, instead of on my computer, asking how.

http://www.l67swap.com
http://www.milzymotorsports.com/

Norm



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 pm 
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[DaytOmni /quote]
1: The '89 has the 3800 w/ 103k miles on it, I've done a tiny bit of research and found out that the LN3 is very similiar to the L67, Infact, supercharging is supposidly as easy as ripping the entire top end off an L67 except the heads???? (Can that be right?) Then i recently read that Grand National heads can be "bolted on". Again, is that right?

2: Can the '91 Ciera be swapped to a L67? What brackets/mounts will i need or is it a custom job?


Questions about aftermarket:
1a: Do they make the Polimotor pushrods still? (plastic and light weight)
2a: Who makes a decent set of forged pistons for the 3800?
3a: Do polyurethane inserts exist for the engine/tranny mounts?
4a: Headstuds, worth it or not worth it?
5a: "Performance tranny rebuild" Who, where, how much, and how much force before it goes BOOM.[/quote]

1a. comp cams oe-r pushrods are the best for a 3800 build
2.a diamond makes great forged pistons for the 3800 highly recomended and throughly proven.
3.anegative- make your own poly mounts or solid mount.
4.headstuds- serious performance build....yea.
5.intense-racing.com zzp.com



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:05 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
DaytOmni wrote:
........ I'm new to the idea of using a Pushrod engine for performance ........

What is new about "pushrod" engines? More importantly, how are they any different than non "pushrod" engines?

DaytOmni wrote:
........ I typically build Turbo Dodge cars (i have an Omni w/ Alch injection, CO2 cooling, and a full turbonetics turbo system, full forged internals. It holds 25lbs of Boost.) ........

I am sure that members of a Dodge forum would be impressed.

DaytOmni wrote:
........ I used to swap a 350 into everything i owned, (350 chevette was badass) ........

If I had such impressive credentials, I would be in my shop, doing it, instead of on my computer, asking how.

http://www.l67swap.com
http://www.milzymotorsports.com/

Norm



I love when people take the time to attack others for stupid crap. How truely worthless is your time? I did all those swaps in highschool and in my garage, not in my shop. And setting up a carb linkage & having my welding done by a friend of mine isn't exactly the same thing as swapping an EFI car, chief. Forgive me SIRE for taking the time to research my project, Not all of us like the trial and error method. Welcome to 2009, people can actually ASK questions to "would-be experts" about projects via the interweb.


Look man, I'm not looking to get a whole bunch of flack for trying to make things go fast, I'm a performance enthusiast (Forget whatever badge the car wears). I appreciate all the info and help you've provided me on my posts. I must say one thing though, I've read quite a few posts on this forum so far and almost all of them contain arguments that completely side track the initial question. Perhaps there would be alot more swapped and boosted A and H bodys on the road if people speant more time correcting the information and less time bickering and picking people apart.


On a seperate note, thank you 91parkave for your answers, they have been most helpful.

This forum's a useful tool that i'm greatful for, But i get enough attitude on a daily basis, i don't need my hobby to be filled with bickering.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:06 am 
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DaytOmni wrote:
........ I did all those swaps in highschool and in my garage ........

I am sure you did.

DaytOmni wrote:
........ isn't exactly the same thing as swapping an EFI car........

The basics do not change.

Norm



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:35 am 
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Hello Dr. Obvious! The basics don't change? Really? No shit? REALLY? I was looking for specifics, and Specifics change for every car. Nothing ever just swaps without modification. Honda forum's have a better attitude than you. Even your "signature" is starting beef with someone!! Your the kind of person that spends all day shitting on peoples youtube videos.


Again, your time must really be worthless.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:08 am 
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Dont bother with norm, norm is norm, since this is the internet you will have people of all types putting their 2 cents in, so expect some bullshit along the way, as for the other question about the grand natoinal parts and such, IMO i wouldnt bother when you can just have a complete L67 powertrain in place and go from there, its been done, IIRC check l67swap.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:37 am 
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DaytOmni wrote:
........ Nothing ever just swaps without modification ........

Since you have the fabrication skills needed to put an Olds engine into a Chevette, I am surprised that you do not have a better understanding of the basics.

DaytOmni wrote:
........ Even your "signature" is starting beef with someone ........

Your assumption, is off the mark by 180°.

The "beef" was started by our resident BS artist, whose childish posting style is very similar to yours.

Norm



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:46 am 
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91buickman wrote:
........ make your own poly mounts or solid mount ........

Excellent advice from someone who who knows all about V6 Buick mounts.

Image

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Norm



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:33 am 
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ugly sure but let me ask what basis do you have to say that the shit i did to my own vehicle dosent work? in that case since you would be making the same b.s mannerisims you accuse me of, making you the true b.s artist. and besides the point how was your other post about his chevette project helpful to the topic? maybe we should try to stay on topic and go from there, crazy idea, i know but...worth a try?



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:07 pm 
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+1 Thats the reason for catagorizing threads. Whats childish about asking a question? Your the one attacking a new member for reasons unknown, just like a kid whos starving for attention picks on the new kids in class. Are you numb or something?

91parkave answers questions and offers solutions.
88 Coupe picks your posts apart and comes off like an ass at any given second.

I'm done with the argument, I don't care how he responds. Useful information only.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:46 pm 
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DaytOmni wrote:
91parkave answers questions and offers solutions.
88 Coupe picks your posts apart and comes off like an ass at any given second.


I think if you spent less time worrying about what someone "comes off like" and more time on what was actually said, you wouldn't have a problem.

88 Coupe wrote:
88 Coupe picks your posts apart


"Picking a post apart" (EG, posting parts of a statement at a time, and responding to each statement individually) make communication clear. Clear communication can be easily read for information. Any Bullshit or inaccurate information is easily parsed, and can be discarded by the reader. It's the Internet way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

If you want information, wouldn't you rather have it easily read, than condensed into one big paragraph that changes subjects?

See how this works?

DaytOmni wrote:
Thats the reason for catagorizing threads. Whats childish about asking a question?


Nothing childish about it, until you start a pissing contest on a statement you don't even know the tone of. I know you are looking for information about your project, and I think there have been people here, 88 Coupe included, that have provided accurate, and helpful direction for you.

DaytOmni wrote:
Your the one attacking a new member for reasons unknown, just like a kid whos starving for attention picks on the new kids in class. Are you numb or something?


What do you consider an attack? My suggestion is to post the quote, so that it can be discussed. If you feel like you are being flamed, say so, instead of just arbitrarily flaming back. That's how these things get started-

My suggestion is also to go back and read the responses to your posts, and not think about what isn't written, but what is written. If you still have a problem after that, let's talk about it in a semi-professional manner, instead of belittling each other. The problem can then be solved, instead of escalating.


Regards,
Andrew



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:05 pm 
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91parkave wrote:
ugly sure but let me ask what basis do you have to say that the shit i did to my own vehicle dosent work?


That's a cop-out to doing it the right way. I've seen many things "work" that were on the verge of falling apart. That "mount system" you came up with may work, but that doesn't mean its right.

Using the old adage, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right," as advice to live by when modifying vehicles, it can be logically deduced that half-assing something together may work, but it isn't how something should be done for any sort of permanent modification. It doesn't matter how long it's lasted, and it doesn't matter how inexpensive it was, it's not the proper way to securely mount an engine, and any solution presented as such should be criticized for it's inadequacy as a proper repair or modification.

In your case, the members of this board have seen many interesting modifications to your Park Avenue, very few of which are done the way they should be. They may work, and you may have had a blast doing them, and that's fine. But that does not give any of those modifications any sort of validity as a good repair or modification, nor should it give you any legitimate reasoning to say that they are quality modifications. That's not a slam against you, just against the way you modified the car.

If someone else wants to follow the road you've been down, there isn't anyone here going to physically stop them. But so long as I'm here, I will at the very least recommend them the right way to do it, instead of taking the easy way out. It's not personal, it's factual. When the facts change, I change my mind.

Relating this to the original topic, The best way to get a supercharged 3800 in this car is to swap an entire L67, which has been recommended about 4 times to DaytOmni now. Much more specific information about swapping the entire drivetrain can be found here-

88 Coupe wrote:


Andrew



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:56 am 
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DaytOmni wrote:
looking for specifics, and Specifics change for every car. Nothing ever just swaps without modification.


DaytOmni wrote:
setting up a carb linkage & having my welding done by a friend of mine isn't exactly the same thing as swapping an EFI car,


No, it's not exactly the same, but any otto-cycle engine will be operating on the same principles. Intake, Compression, Power, Exhaust. It needs 4 things to run- Compression, Fuel, Spark, and Air.

If you've done engine swaps such as a 350 Chevette, you already have a good handle on the how-to of physically getting the engine in the available real-estate.

The differences (between carbureted engines, and EFI) are the mechanisms that control these things. Computer controlled, EFI engines aren't much more complicated than their carburetor counterparts (They are more sophisticated), but you will need to learn how they work. Since you don't appear to be new to working on cars, I'd assume that you know some of what makes EFI, and an engine management system work. You might start your research (and maybe you have) by asking about what you don't quite understand yet about engine management systems (Computer controlled cars) and the components of them.

It will be much easier to understand some of the answers to the questions about an L67 swap if you know why the engine uses and needs the components it does, and how those components work.

I'm intentionally being rather vague, only because it likely won't benefit you for me (or anyone else) to ramble on about EFI, without first knowing what exactly you need to know about it.



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 Post subject: Re: NEW to FWD Pushrods.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:40 am 
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very well put andrew, ssomething like that i can respect, i would also like to point out that i never told anyone to do as i did when it comes to my mounts, point blank, hell if i'd had more money and tools available i would have made something alot more professional, but my shit is holding up fine to this day and with no driveability problems.



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