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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Hi everyone. I am thinking that by the end of this year, I am going to start working on the 85 Delta again. It has the 7A heads and the A5 Intake. The first thing Im going after is mild performance. The car wont be a daily driver, so gas mileage is not a concern, but I do want to be able to drive it to the track, so streetability is. I want to get the car into the high 13s or low 14s. What are parts I could buy, to get it there? Also, at what RPM would the engine be safe, and make power at the same time? Is it even possible to make power on this engine without breaking it? Finally, what other stuff can be done to the engine during the actual rebuild to make it perform better and be more reliable?



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:50 pm 
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valley olds wrote:
Hi everyone. I am thinking that by the end of this year, I am going to start working on the 85 Delta again. It has the 7A heads and the A5 Intake. The first thing Im going after is mild performance. The car wont be a daily driver, so gas mileage is not a concern, but I do want to be able to drive it to the track, so streetability is. I want to get the car into the high 13s or low 14s. What are parts I could buy, to get it there? Also, at what RPM would the engine be safe, and make power at the same time? Is it even possible to make power on this engine without breaking it? Finally, what other stuff can be done to the engine during the actual rebuild to make it perform better and be more reliable?


This will sound like a broken record, but the best advice I can give is to build a 350 when the 307 gets tired. It will be easier, and quite possibly cheaper to get a car in the 14's with the 350 than it will be with a 307. It's possible to make power with the 307, and there was quite the 307 in last years EMC (Engine Masters Challenge) that was done pretty cheap, but I believe you'll get more bang for your buck with more displacement.

In the meantime, getting the 307 in a "perfect" state of tune is may be the best option. If you're planning an engine rebuild anyway, building the 350 would let you drive the car still.

You could do things to the car that would benefit the new engine, while you're working on building it- Things such as any Ignition upgrades you want, transmission modifications, or chassis modifications could be done to make the car more fun, but without putting money into what you would be getting rid of.

If performance is what you're after, you will want to take the car off the computer. If you have to worry about state inspections, this is not a good idea. The CCC distributor and Carburetor are great for a daily driver, and provide adequate performance for their applications, but those components are pretty limited when it comes to "high-performance"

As far as an engine rebuild, I would use good quality OEM replacement style pistons, stock rods, stock crank. Have it balanced, keep the cam on the smaller side, run the clearances on the larger side of spec, and run an aluminum dual plane intake and appropriate sized carburetor. I would shoot for 9.5:1 compression, maybe a bit more. If you build a 350, I would look for some #5 or 6 heads (although you could probably successfully use #8's too), and get a good 3-angle valve job done, and do some mild home porting/blending. Your goal isn't to be lightning fast so just blending out the ridges and opening up the exhaust side a bit will be beneficial, but not real difficult to do at home. "Port matching" to the intake gasket will help too. There's no need to get crazy with it.

I used to spin my stock 8-headed 350 at 5500 quite a bit. It saw 6000 more than a few times too, which probably wasn't too good for it. I'd try to keep RPM below 5700 on a "good" rebuild like I mentioned. You can get a rev-limiter pretty cheap these days.

The other thing to consider is matching your intake and cam (As well as your other engine components) so that they are "making power" in the same RPM range. A cam that will pull to 6200 doesn't do you much good if the intake will only support 5500, and vice-versa.

Of course, there's a slew of other things you'll want to do to the car to get it ready for the track. I think it will be pretty "easy" to get into the low 14's just using mostly stock components. We are talking about a heavy car, but if you can get it to hook well, and make the right choice in engine components, I think it's totally doable.

And also, if you're talking engine replacement, there's no reason you couldn't do something other than a small-block. A 425 or 455 might get you to your goal in their stock form. However, big-blocks are worth more, are a bit more expensive to rebuild, and getting harder to come by than small blocks. It's still pretty easy, at least in my area, to find a good running Olds 350. That's why I suggested it.

I apologize for being so wordy, but I hope this helps-

Andrew



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:13 pm 
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valley olds wrote:
........ The car wont be a daily driver ........ but I do want to be able to drive it to the track ........

What trans?

valley olds wrote:
........ I want to get the car into the high 13s or low 14s ........

What does it weigh?

valley olds wrote:
........ What are parts I could buy, to get it there? ........

First things first.

What is your budget? Without knowing anything else about your combination, you are looking at a minimum $1500-$2000 into the the drivetrain/suspension, in order to make it to the end of your first pass.

valley olds wrote:
........ Also, at what RPM would the engine be safe, and make power at the same time? ........

430 HP @ 6500 RPM is not out of the question. All it takes is a competent machine shop, and someone to write the check.

valley olds wrote:
........ Is it even possible to make power on this engine without breaking it? ........

Not possible if the participants have been educated on the internet.

valley olds wrote:
........ what other stuff can be done to the engine during the actual rebuild to make it perform better and be more reliable?

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... tions.html

Norm



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:33 pm 
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andrewk wrote:
........ "Port matching" to the intake gasket will help too ........

"Port matching" and "gasket matching" are two different operations.

"Port matching" (intake and exhaust) is part of a quality rebuild. "Gasket matching" makes one "feel" like he/she has accomplished something beautiful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:13 pm 
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I probably could easily make more power with the 350, but Ill settle with whatever the 307 offers me.

Quote:
andrewk: performance is what you're after, you will want to take the car off the computer.


How would I do this? Do I just get a non ccc carb and distributor, or will I need anything else?


Quote:
88 Coupe: What trans?

Trans is a 200-4R and rear end is a 7.5 inch

Quote:
88 Coupe: What does it weigh?

around 3600 lbs

Quote:
88 Coupe: First things first.

What is your budget? Without knowing anything else about your combination, you are looking at a minimum $1500-$2000 into the the drivetrain/suspension, in order to make it to the end of your first pass.


First Im starting with the engine. My budget for the engine is 2 to 3 thousand. Drivetrain and suspension will come a couple months afterwards.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:27 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
andrewk wrote:
........ "Port matching" to the intake gasket will help too ........

"Port matching" and "gasket matching" are two different operations.

"Port matching" (intake and exhaust) is part of a quality rebuild. "Gasket matching" makes one "feel" like he/she has accomplished something beautiful.

Norm


Thanks for the additional information and clarification, Norm. I was referring to the latter statement, but I worded it poorly.

Andrew



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:14 am 
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There is a reason why I said "first things first".

valley olds wrote:
........ First Im starting with the engine. My budget for the engine is 2 to 3 thousand. Drivetrain and suspension will come a couple months afterwards.

Three things, that you will not find on the internet:
    1. If it was as easy as using a "list" to buy the parts, not only would everyone would be doing it, the "list" would be all over the internet.
    2. The engine is only part of the combination.
    3. The "rookies" that do the engines first, are the ones that everyone laughs at.
Going by memory, there were two members on another site, who had Cutlii (about 3400 and 3600 pounds) with "performance" 455s. 12 second cars, I think, with smoking tires and spectators laughing.

A couple of years ago, they both had their engines done professionally at close to five figures. Keep in mind, that the drive trains, suspensions, etc, got little attention. Last I heard, both combos were using close to 600HP to get into the high elevens, and the fans are still laughing at the tire smoke.

Ten years ago, there was a 3900# (300# = .3 seconds) street cruiser, running 11.9s, with about 150 less HP. I put that 439 HP 425 together for under $1800 and the drive train (including wheels and tires) for under $900

One more thing: Since I have been on the internet, I have learned that I did everything wrong.

Norm



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:54 am 
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Quote:
88 Coupe: Three things, that you will not find on the internet:

1. If it was as easy as using a "list" to buy the parts, not only would everyone would be doing it, the "list" would be all over the internet.

2. The engine is only part of the combination.

3. The "rookies" that do the engines first, are the ones that everyone laughs at.

Going by memory, there were two members on another site, who had Cutlii (about 3400 and 3600 pounds) with "performance" 455s. 12 second cars, I think, with smoking tires and spectators laughing.

A couple of years ago, they both had their engines done professionally at close to five figures. Keep in mind, that the drive trains, suspensions, etc, got little attention. Last I heard, both combos were using close to 600HP to get into the high elevens, and the fans are still laughing at the tire smoke.

Ten years ago, there was a 3900# (300# = .3 seconds) street cruiser, running 11.9s, with about 150 less HP. I put that 439 HP 425 together for under $1800 and the drive train (including wheels and tires) for under $900

One more thing: Since I have been on the internet, I have learned that I did everything wrong.


So, I have to work on the drivetrain and suspension first? The reason I was going for engine first, was that I am having trouble with my current one, but if its not a good idea, Ill go for drivetrain and suspension first.

Quote:
88 Coupe: I put that 439 HP 425 together for under $1800 and the drive train (including wheels and tires) for under $900


How did you do the suspension and drivetrain for that little? Thats probably what a lot of people would pay for just the tires and wheels. Tranny builds aren't exactly cheap either.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:16 am 
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valley olds wrote:
........ I am having trouble with my current one ........

What trouble?

valley olds wrote:
........ How did you do the suspension and drivetrain for that little? ........

Parts came from swap meets and bone yards. I never add or replace anything, that does not help to meet my goal.

Add $540 to that $900 for the new Art Carr torque converter I forgot to mention.

valley olds wrote:
........ Thats probably what a lot of people would pay for just the tires and wheels .........

A lot of people pay for things that they do not need.

I had two 15" x 10" wheels custom made for $80. New 275 x 60 ET "streets" were well under $300.

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valley olds wrote:
........ Tranny builds ........

I do not do trannys.

valley olds wrote:
........ aren't exactly cheap either.

Probably would have been about $250, or so, if the trans had needed work. As it was, I made a couple of modifications to the valve body and called it good.

Norm



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:29 pm 
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88Coupe wrote:
I never add or replace anything, that does not help to meet my goal.


That's the true spirit of "hot rodding" I think.

Obviously this wouldn't be the thread for it, but are you willing to share some of the specifics on the red coupe? I like your style of "nothing it doesn't need."

Andrew



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Quote:
88 Coupe: What trouble?


Burning oil

That sounds like quite a car you've got. I'd also like to hear the specifics on your build, if you don't mind sharing them.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:32 pm 
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valley olds wrote:
........ Burning oil ........

How many quarts in 1000 miles?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:53 pm 
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andrewk wrote:
........ are you willing to share some of the specifics on the red coupe? ........

Red coupe is a different story. Everything was done by one of the previous owners. He spent a lot more money than he needed to, and the result doesn't fit my idea of "streetable".

I bought it because the price was very reasonable.

valley olds wrote:
........ I'd also like to hear the specifics ........

No big "secrets" just a working knowledge of the basics.

http://www.oldsconnection.com/forum/vie ... hp?p=25330

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Quote:
88 Coupe: How many quarts in 1000 miles?


I never really checked exactly how long it took to burn the oil, but I do remember that by when it was time for the oil change, I had added 2 to 3 quarts of oil. If the oil I used matters any, I would use SAE 40.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:20 pm 
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You might check your plugs to see if one or more of them is "oil fouled." If your plugs look normal, you might be looking for an oil leak, rather than oil consumption.

If you are using 1 quart every 1000 miles, I would think you would be seeing some blue smoke every once in awhile.

Andrew



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