Hi All,

DrJay: Your use of bold font is rude and uncalled for.


Gains would be more likely with longer duration, but how do you increase duration by changing rocker ratios?


In theory, yes. In abbike18s case, other factors such as compression and port flow, would limit the amount of mixture to the cylinder/combustion chamber.

To follow your theory, the CPU would then keep mixture and timing adjustments within factory limits. If, in his case, an aftermarket chip is not needed, this paragraph is academic.


The subject is Ratio rockers with a stock cam. A cam change would be another subject. When I do not understand a statement, I ask for clarification before responding.

Again, a simple question would have called this typo to my attention. It should have said:
Over the years, various combinations of rocker arm ratios, in otherwise stock engines, have resulted in small gains or losses depending on the engine tested

Our work was on several versions of SBC. Gains, with only ratio changes, were not enough for us to continue our research. Other companies, with more resources, went with it. I still feel we made the right choice.

Examples of combinations might be: 1.5 on intake/1.6 on exhaust, 1.55 on exhaust/1.5 on intake, 1.5 on all, 1.62 on all, etc. We noted small losses in some cases.


In performance and racing builds, they can.


And your point?


I see you do understand the difference between theory and practice.


Does the reduced friction of the roller tip compensate for the increased friction caused by the extra lift and the resulting incorrect valve train geometry?


If abbike18 had the same combo, it might. It is not only off topic, it looks like a diversion.


And you get a power increase of more than 10%?


Ease of installation and less expense is always a good selling point, but it is off the subject.


Reduced friction is always good, but in this case, roller tips alone are not worth the time and expense.


Since it was a fresh build, they replaced nothing. What is your point?


A link to the manufacturer’s website would be appropriate.


I am familiar with the theory. We are all still waiting for real world numbers.


It explains the theory behind the estimate, while avoiding the subject.


Like most sales pitches, it does not.

abbike18:

In some cases, ratio rockers can make significant gains when included in a racing engine design, but not in a stock engine.

You can choose to believe a salesman, or someone with hands on experience. It’s your money and time.

I believe Turbocharged400sbc is doing some research into 3800 heads and parts interchangeability. He is hands on and might have some information you can actually use.

Regards, Norm

DrJay,

If you have any questions concerning flow characteristics or valve train geometry, please start a thread here.

Regards, Norm

Changes like this will effect peak hp and torque slightly could go both ways though. To actually benefit from this ud have to dyno your car over and over, what will change more is ur entire curve. You might get less torque, but it will come on at a lower rpm, or u might get more torque but it will come at a higher rpm, depends on what you plan on doing.

I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to be offensive with the bold text. It was simply another way of making my text stand out without using separate quotes.



Higher ratio rockers are known to increase duration slightly. This is documented on a number of websites and in books. I hope you take the initiative to look it up yourself.




Please elaborate.




That's always a good habit. I didn't think this thread would get carried away so I took a stab at what I thought you may have been talking about.




How about if I took all of the EVO IVO IVC and EVC events and put them at random...Would that affect performance in a stock engine? Or did I jump the gun on another typo?




My point was simply that, I haven't seen it. There are a lot of things each of us haven't seen, that's one for me. I think it would explain my disbelief in higher lift resulting in less power.




It's possible, but I don't have the necessary numbers on hand.





You asked for dyno proof and while I don't have any for these particular ones I was providing proof that rockers can add performance to a "cpu" controlled 3800.
I think it would have worked better as a diversion if I didn't directly respond to each of your statements following it.





More than 10% from a performance camshaft? Sure.




Yeah that would make for a good selling point. It's a wonder why I don't (and never will) include that in the part description...That was merely to address your statement about rockers being a band-aid for a "poor cam choice." Since it was a response to a statement you made I can only assume it was on topic.




You're right, but luckily I'm also offering the entire higher lift rockers with the tips.



I try to make my points clear. If reduced friction was not of any benefit at all why would GM spend the time and money adding them to the '93? I can only assume they did it for a reason and not just because an engineer was bored and decided to try something new on a production car.



So am I. If you ever find yourself owning a 3800 and decide to buy the rockers feel free to dyno test and report.



You seemed to take issue with the 8-10% remark. I don't understand how my responding to that is "avoiding the subject."





I think it's extremely rude to imply that I'm some sleazy salesman here to spit a line and make a buck. I don't do this for profit, never have. I don't expect you to believe that but many of the people who actually know me can attest to that. But I doubt you'll ever talk to one of them and will probably continue to pass judgement based on your own assumptions.

You also presume to know how much "hands on" I have with these engines, yet call me rude?



He is working on putting many SII parts onto his SI. I've talked to him a number of times, he's doing some really neat stuff. I'm excited to see how it works out, although for the average person the effort involved for the nominal gains would be prohibitive.

Let me elaborate a little on an earlier statement. I'm not here to make money and chances are I never will be. I built my 3800 from the block up and had to do months of research into every piece because nobody carried them. There isn't a single company out there that carries a full line of performance parts for these engines, and I thought that just flat out sucked. So once I was done loading my engine with every piece I could find, I decided to make a webpage to help others find them. I'd like to make it a one-stop-shop for the neglected S1 3800 and that's all. MOST of the parts there I barely make enough on to make it worth driving to FedEx and that's the honest truth. I do it because I like it. I enjoy helping people get the OEM parts they need, I enjoy being able to provide performance parts, and I really enjoy being able to breath a bit of life into the performance S1 3800 community.

I didn't come here to convince anyone to buy the rockers. I thought it would make for an interesting discussion and maybe we can both learn something. Matter a fact we did. I learned some people take bold text reguardless of placement as offensive, and as soon as you look into it you'll learn that higher ratio rockers have a slight affect on duration...But it came at the expense of attempted degradation, so it doesn't seem worth it.

Again though, I don't expect you to believe that. I probably wouldn't if I was sitting where you are. But at least I can say it and know to myself that it's the truth.

Hi All

DrJay


Actually, considering the circumstances surrounding your first post on this board, I took it as an attempt at intimidation. I guess I was wrong.


If you need to ask, it is academic.


Post anything you want, as long as it pertains to the original question.


I did?

If I had asked, it would have been for a link to the rocker arm manufacturer’s web site, since they have the relevant information.


If I had known the thread owner to have a supercharged engine, I would have told him to go for it.

If he does not, it is a smokescreen.


Because it does not apply in this case.


“You are a salesmanâ€

I'm sorry I haven't answered the questions to your satisfaction. If anyone else reading this feels that I have "danced around the facts" and tried to use "diversions" please let me know how and I'll try to give a more detailed answer.

For the record I don't deny being a "salesman" because I am a man and do sell things. But I'm not here to make up stories just to push a product, which is what you were insinuating.

I hope through all this mess abbike18 is able to get some kind of answer to his question. If you want any more details about the product feel free to email me.

88 coupe: If you need some web sites about the technical side of rockers let me know, I've got a few that may interest you.

Hi All,

DrJay,


Maybe, you need to stay closer to subjects you know, so you can actually answer the questions instead of faking it.

You might also check out where you are going before you take a knife to a gunfight. Don’t blame Hans, he didn’t know.


Since you ignored it the first time, here's another chance to explain this one. It is your best example. If you miss anything, I'll fill it in for you.


Thank you.


No one said you make up stories. You just do not have enough correct information to support your opinion. My guess is: your automotive education was on the internet and the streets.


What part of, “no more, no lessâ€

Wow, pretty harsh. I'm not going to get into a flat out arguement with you, which it sounds like you want to do. With that, I'll only address a few of your comments.

The website is in my sig because a lot of people don't know it exists. Aparently you aren't very familiar with the S1 3800 market or you'll know there is nowhere else to get these rockers. If you read my story from before, nobody else carries a full line of performance products for these engines.

The rocker manufacturer isn't going to have anything more about the product openly available. They're not geared towards the public so there isn't a flashy webpage with a ton of information on it. I've personally asked about most of the information you see there and can relay any further questions you have.

Again, not sure where I've faked it. Given the chance you decided not to quote me and point it out. If you have a question about ANY portion of what I've said please feel free to quote it. The only one you did is easily explained here:










I said I don't have dyno numbers, you still asked for dyno numbers, so I gave you the best thing I could find. It's a newer 3800 with a "cpu" (as you like to call it) that saw gains from similar rockers. I understand you would like to see dyno charts of these rockers on this engine, as would I, but to call it a diversion is a bit overboard. Besides, you aparently didn't believe me from the start so what would putting up some dyno chart do for you? Think you would believe it?



It's strange you would say this especially considering I'm the only one between us that actually has a S1 3800 AND these rockers on it. Top that off with the fact that you didn't even know higher ratio rockers add a slight bit of duration and I have to wonder who that comment should have been directed towards.






I'm not sure what needs explaining there. I said if you need me to elaborate on something I've said let me know. An example of this would be if you quoted my explanation of the 8-10% and asked a direct question about it.



So I "fake it" yet don't make up stories...not sure where you're heading with that one, but ok.
I'm not going to go through and list my education to you, but my personal experience with the 3800 is well known to many people. I built a S1 that in many respects is the first of its kind, but I'm also not here to beat my own drum so I'll leave you to investigate that.

I can appreciate your opinion, even though it counters mine. I love a good debate and differing opinions comes with it. What I don't like is when you make negative assumptions about my knowledge of the products I sell, general automotive knowledge, and attack my character. I was hoping we could exchange information and come to a conclusion, but it seems having a mature conversation with you isn't going to happen, so I'll leave it at that.

Hi All,

DrJay,


I do not argue. I will debate theory or opinion, but fact is not debatable.


Of course you will. As you have been doing all along, you will cherry pick the ones that suit your purpose, and ignore the ones that might be embarrassing for you to deal with. See below.


You just defined advertising.
Advertising is done by salesmen to sell a product.
You are advertising on this board.
Can you guess where I might be going with this?


Are you saying: you are the exclusive world distributor for this manufacturer, and that a similar product is not made by any other company?


I ignored it because it is blatant advertising, and it does not pertain to the topic.


You have explained your version to almost everyone. The rest of us would appreciate a more complete explanation.

â€

To expedite this response I'm going to use bold text. Don't freak out.


You have explained your version to almost everyone. The rest of us would appreciate a more complete explanation.

â€

After reading all that, I agree with norm that the gains that will most likely NOT be worth the time and money invested. Its simple economics really, if the product isn't more than marginaly better than the original, then the time and money invested aren't worth it. Isnt that what this thread was, or is about? With out doing the heads and adding a good cam, performance rockers wont get you much. Im pretty sure that is what has been said in a nutshell. Maybe I am dead wrong, but I think that putting all that work into that engine with out upgrading the other valvetrain and intake components is a big waste of time and money. But it is yours and I wont sit here and try to make you do anything. I am not extremely knowledgable about valvetrain semantics, but I do know the basic theory and the physics behind it.

Andrew

Yea....that's what I got from this topic too. Doing just the rocker arms isn't going to help much unless you change the cam and pretty much rebuild the entire engine. You'd probably be better off just dropping an L67 in after doing all that....

TOC Admin
Brando

Hi All,

I’m going to start from the beginning and work my way to the end of this entire post. Not all at once.


No problem, I am sure we will all look forward to your hard to read posts, and we will gladly read them because we do not want you to be inconvenienced in any way.

A gross exaggeration in this case. Returns will not be worth the investment, not including the extra parts needed to do the conversion correctly, but are not offered in the package.


Nice touch, No clue whether they will work as advertised in the application, but he posts the link for his bud DrJay anyway.
Hans also does not know these rockers are not recommended for mid to high mileage engines, and the manufacturer recommends using them as part of a performance rebuild. Probably because DrJay left that part out.


Many on this board understood my posts on the lift question, so I must have answered it.

Since you missed it here it is again.



Please reread and answer the question.

If you knew the answer you would have posted it. Since you did not know the answer, you would send me to look it up for you? Doesn’t work that way as you would not have liked the answer.

Post a link to the your version of the correct answer, I think we could all use a laugh.

For anyone who might be interested, I found this site to be informative.

http://www.yellaterra.com.au/index.php

http://www.yellaterra.com.au/roller.php

http://www.yellaterra.com.au/stealth.php

Stay tuned.

Regards, Norm

Hi all.

DrJay


Not "Rocket science".

The answer is/was taught in first year High School during Auto Shop and/or General Science.

We have been waiting for DrJay to answer, since June 2.

Regards, Norm