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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:33 pm 
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So, the reason I am here is to ask a very "dumb" question!
Just had the exhaust replaced on my 99 Olds Intrigue GL (95K on it).
Got GM replacement parts..nice, stainless and all.
Well, I was admiring the shiny new muffler and pipes, but noticed that it looks as though the pipe coming off the muffler and curving toward midline (can you picture what I'm describing?) is awfully low! Like, lower than the muffler.
Is that normal?
Did I just not notice that's how it looked before they replaced it?

Also, has anyone's transmission gone out at about 95-100K?
Mine did on my '87 Delta 88, so am watching and waiting (will give it the Lucas treatment just in case though).
I would like to keep this car going for as long as possible!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:03 pm 
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First, I think you should take the car back to the shop for a quick inspection, if you are noticing low hanging pipes. That can be a problem if you enter some bad parking lots. The hangers may not be welded in the proper place. Should be under some sort of warranty, if you just had this done.

I've got an 88, with the problematic trans, and I too am worried about it letting me down some day. But I just drive until theres a problem... It keeps pulling, so I just drive it!



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:32 pm 
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I just had mine rebuilt. I should've had it rebuilt the moment I got the car and when I had initially replaced all the mounts. The first indication it was giving me that it was about ready to go was when I was intermittently getting a trouble code from my car's ECM pointing to the TCC solenoid. And then after a while I would notice a slight shuddering sensation coming from the front wheels at 40 mph.

I think what saved me more than anything until it got really bad was my constant changing of the transmission fluid and filter every 6 months, irregardless of the fluid condition.

I'm planning to get another transmission from a local junk yard and have it completely rebuilt and stored in my garage as a back up.

Although the rebuild took a huge bite out of my bank account, the transmission now is as solid as a rock.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:08 pm 
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MysterHK wrote:
Although the rebuild took a huge bite out of my bank account, the transmission now is as solid as a rock.


Don't be so sure. The 440T4 is a weak tranny. Even with a good re-build ya gotta treat it with care. Hell, my re-build is going on 4K and is already slipping again. And my exhaust system I had put on when I bought the car is shot too. There is literally catalytic converter pieces laying in the muffler. All depends on the situation. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:36 pm 
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Man, Adam, maybe someone ought to make a super 440T4. Now there's an idea. The transmission from hell that'll take a beating and keep on ticking. Oh wait, Timex watches already own that slogan. :P



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:51 am 
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Hi DI, hello everyone,

Quote:
........ had the exhaust replaced on my 99 Olds Intrigue GL (95K on it).
Got GM replacement parts..nice, stainless and all ........

Stainless needed replacement so soon?

Quote:
........ is awfully low! Like, lower than the muffler.
Is that normal? ........

Take it back to the installer.

Quote:
........ has anyone's transmission gone out at about 95-100K? ........

Under normal use, there is no reason why a properly maintained automatic trans shouldn't last twice that long.

My newer 700R4 has 220K plus on it. Nothing done, other than PM.

Quote:
........ will give it the Lucas treatment just in case though ........

Waste of money. If your trans in on its last legs, type "F" ATF might buy you a little more time.

MysterHK wrote:
........ I'm planning to get another transmission from a local junk yard and have it completely rebuilt and stored in my garage as a back up .........

If your recent rebuild lasts as long as it should, your backup trans will have to be dismantled to replace it's deteriorated seals. Labor will be close to that of a complete rebuild.

87Delta wrote:
MysterHK wrote:
Although the rebuild took a huge bite out of my bank account, the transmission now is as solid as a rock.

Don't be so sure. The 440T4 is a weak trans. Even with a good re-build ya gotta treat it with care.

So, are we to assume Oldsmobile put weak transmissions in their cars? Would that explain why GM had to shut the Division down?

Regards, Norm



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:49 am 
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My olds is at 201,000km's and still turning the original trans. I expect to make the trans last until I get rid of the car, or aquire another car. I dont drive the car hard, or make the trans shift hard either. I keep an eye on fluid level, and thats about it!



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:06 am 
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88 Coupe wrote:
So, are we to assume Oldsmobile put weak transmissions in their cars? Would that explain why GM had to shut the Division down?


How would I know if it lead to the shut down of Oldsmobile? All I know is the 440T4 is know for having problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:53 pm 
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87Delta wrote:
........ All I know is the 440T4 is known for having problems.

Known by who? What problems?

What fixes are available?

How many miles before the problems begin?

Do they all have problems? If not, what percentage of them do?

Do the problems continue after the factory upgrades have been installed?

How much is due to abuse and/or neglect?

Where does your information come from? Is there any hard data to support your claim?

If your claim is true, shouldn't everyone be told not to buy any car with that trans, and that all cars having one should be junked?

Is it possible, you made the statement out of frustration with your own personal problem?



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:03 pm 
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88 Coupe wrote:
87Delta wrote:
........ All I know is the 440T4 is known for having problems.

Known by who? What problems?

What fixes are available?

How many miles before the problems begin?

Do they all have problems? If not, what percentage of them do?

Do the problems continue after the factory upgrades have been installed?

How much is due to abuse and/or neglect?

Where does your information come from? Is there any hard data to support your claim?

If your claim is true, shouldn't everyone be told not to buy any car with that trans, and that all cars having one should be junked?

Is it possible, you made the statement out of frustration with your own personal problem?


I don't know where I heard it from, but heard they weren't the best. It may or may not be true. My personal experience may or may not be different because I drive the car alot, and not lightly. (I don't do neutral drops or anything..) So I don' know...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:01 pm 
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They redesigned the 440t4 several times, each year came with an improvement.

Taken from this site:

Quote:
A little history on the 4T60 used in FWD GM vehicles.

The THM440-T4 was introduced in 1984 on the new GM
full sized luxury vehicles (Oldsmobile Regency 98, Buick
Park Avenue, Cadillac Sedan Deville - remember the logo
on the trunk lid "4-Speed Automatic"). This transmission
was basically the THM125-C with an overdrive added on.
The original 440 was not very reliable. Many changes
were made the first 3 years. Areas that suffered many
failures were torque converters (clutch rivets), 2nd
clutch housings, 4th clutch area, final drive.
When the Cadillac Allante was introduced, the 440
would not handle the torque of the V-8, so a special
version known as the F-7 was developed. It included
special sprockets, heavy duty final drive, special
fourth clutch, etc. A rare but solid transmission if
you can find one.
By 1988 the quality was better, but to make the
440 (now called the 4T60) a world class transmission,
electronic controls were added. The new transmission was
coded F-31 and became known as the 4T60-E. The 4T60-E was
phased in from 1988 to 1990. You can tell by looking at
the bottom oil pan - it will be stamped with "4T60-E".
This transmission has much better reliability. By the
1991 model year, all FWD Overdrive transmissions were
the 4T60-E model.
As a side note, with the introduction of the
Northstar V-8s, a new low volume transmission was
developed for these applications. It is known as the
4T80-E. Very durable but very expensive, about 80%
higher in cost than the 4T60-E. Also 60 pounds
heavier.
With the introduction of the Supercharged 3800,
a few modifications to the 4T60-E were made. The
biggest change is the final drive unit, which is of
heavy duty design. The transmission still can't
handle the full torque of engines such as the SC 3800
and the DOHC 3.4L V-6s at redline during shifts. GM
utilizes Engine Torque Management to maintain
reliability. This consists of controlling engine rpm
and engine torque (through timing and fuel) during
shifts. That is why the SC 3800 and DOHC 3.4L do
not shift at redline at WOT.
For the 1997 model year, GM introduce the 4T65-E.
This transmission is a heavily reworked 4T60-E design
which includes such features as a 258mm torque converter
instead of 245mm, twin chains and special sprockets for
noise, Electronic Line Pressure (ELP) for ECM control
of pump pressure to better regulate shift quality,
revised fourth clutch, revised second clutch housing,
and many other improvements to reliability. The first
applications to receive the 4T65-E will be the
SC 3800 V-6 and the DOHC 3.4L V-6 to minimize the need
for torque management. The phase in will be three
years and will be complete by model year 1999.
The biggest cause of failure of the original
4T60 (440) is heat. [snip of restricted info] Through
control of shift points and torque converter lockup,
tranmission temperature can be controlled. There is
a temperature sensor in the transmission for the ECM
to monitor. This shows the STRONG recommendation
to add and external air/oil transmission cooler
for 4T60 (440) equipped vehicles.


As you can see, electronic control of the shift points added greatly to a more reliable transmission.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 pm 
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So.. Up untill 1987 the 440T4 was not very reliable untill the 1988 revisions to add the electronic controls? I read the entire article, but am sorta confused...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:16 pm 
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yes...1988 the 440t4 was renamed to 4t60, which is the year they added electronic control, reducing heat. The 440t4 can be a reliable transmission...just need to take care of the heat, trans cooler.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:18 pm 
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Brando wrote:
yes...1988 the 440t4 was renamed to 4t60, which is the year they added electronic control, reducing heat. The 440t4 can be a reliable transmission...just need to take care of the heat, trans cooler.


Very good idea. I do alot of highway driving and I know she gets hot. :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:35 pm 
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Thank you Brando

87Delta wrote:
........ Don't be so sure. The 440T4 is a weak trans .........

87Delta wrote:
........ I don't know where I heard it from, but heard they weren't the best. It may or may not be true ........ So I don' know...

Looks like more than one lesson can be learned from this.

Regards, Norm



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